LL change to pitch count rules?

[MattInVa]

In the 2013 book, LL added an additiona exception to regulation VI-d.  The d section is the one talking about the days of rest after pitching x number of pitches.

 

Here is the exception: "If a pitcher reaches a day(s) of rest threshold while facing a batter, the pitcher may continue to pitch until any one of the following conditions occurs: 1. That batter reaches base; 2. That batter is retired; 3. The third out is made to complete the half-inning.  The pitcher will only be required to observe the calendar day(s) of rest for the threshold he/she reached during that at-bat, provided that pitcher is removed before delivering a pitch to another batter."

 

 

We had our first off season training tonight, and the league president heard from someone above him that nothing had changed from last season and it did not mean that a pitcher could say pass the 20 pitch threshold (pitchers age 14 and below) during an at bat and still pitch the next day.  (at-bat starts at 18, finishes at 23).

 

The reasoning was that as soon as the pitcher hit 21, that a new threshold was reached and that became the governing threshold.  I read it differently.  I consider the thresholds to be >20, >35, >50, and >65 so that in the scenario above, he would be able to pitch the next day.  Otherwise, why include the exception at all?

 

 

Has anyone looked at this yet?

[MattInVa]

From LL website.

 

Regulation VI (d) has been amended to read, in part: Applies to: Baseball & Challenger Rule Books

EXCEPTION: If a pitcher reaches a day(s) of rest
threshold while facing a batter, the pitcher may continue to pitch until
any one of the following conditions occurs: 1. That batter reaches
base; 2. That batter is retired; 3. The third out is made to complete
the half-inning. The pitcher will only be required to observe the
calendar day(s) of rest for the threshold he/she reached during that
at-bat, provided that pitcher is removed before delivering a pitch to
another batter.

Summary and Implementation: For the 2013 season,
wording was revised allowing a pitcher who reaches his/her imposed days
of rest threshold while facing a batter to continue to pitch until the
current batter has been retired or reaches base.

[basejester]

You're right; it's changed.

Days of rest are now determined by the number of pitches at the beginning of the last at-bat.

[johnnyg08]

That's good.  That change probably came from MLB.

[mjr_2013]

I like the change. It'll make the game quicker and remove the weird mid-at bat pitching changes... Plus, is an extra 3 or 4 pitches max really going to kill a pitchers arm?

[semper_fi_72]

That's good.  That change probably came from MLB.

 

How did you come up with this coming from MLB?

MLB doesn't have any rule about days rest or pitch count for a F1 before they can pitch again.

[BT_Blue]

Nor would they care about the pitch counts for kids that are ten years away from even getting thought about.

[MattInVa]

I like the change. It'll make the game quicker and remove the weird mid-at bat pitching changes... Plus, is an extra 3 or 4 pitches max really going to kill a pitchers arm?

 

 

Exactly.  I like it.  It will keep the batter from havine to stand around waiting for a pitching change mid AB. 

 

However, I can't convinve our President that I am right.  I have compared this regulation to VI-© which folllows the same format.  Tried to explain that the rule can't be the same as last year because they added an "exception" in the same format as the exception that allows players to go over their daily maximum.  Our President got his interpretation from the district who is now going to seek interpretation from the region.

 

To me, it could not be any clearer.

 

 

The ONLY problem I see with the rule is on the reporting side.  When you looked at an online pitch count report that showed a pitcher over his daily max, you knew it was because he finished a batter,  If you see 23 online, you won't know if that is 18 and he finished a batter to get to 22 or a straight 23.  Leagues will have to start recording in a format similar to 23 (20) to show that the pitcher went to 23, but is eligible to pitch with 0 days rest.

[semper_fi_72]

Key point to remember here about pitch count rules for Little League.

You as a Umpire have no responsibility.

That is a Leagues Board of Directors responsibility and the onsite Board members responsibility.

The only time a umpire worries about pitch count is when the Official Scorekeeper tells you a pitcher has reached his max.

You tell the manager and he changes the pitcher.

Not our responsibility to track who threw how many pitches how many days ago.

[johnnyg08]

That's good.  That change probably came from MLB.

 

How did you come up with this coming from MLB?

MLB doesn't have any rule about days rest or pitch count for a F1 before they can pitch again.

 

 

It was a joke guys.  

[MattInVa]

Yes. I know it is not our responsibility.

Anyway, the district administrator got with the regional administrator and bottom line is that I was right.

[EMump]

 

Couple of fun facts about the rule change:

 

1. If the pitcher is removed during an at bat this rule does not apply. i.e. pitcher starts at bat with 18 pitches, 4 pitches into the at bat the pitcher is removed. Pitch count for pitcher 22. The rule only applys if one of the three conditions happen.

 

2. If the pitcher reaches the next threshold during the at bat the higher days rest must be observed. i.e. pitcher starts at bat 19 pitches and has a 17 pitch at bat. the pitcher would need to observe the higher days rest for throwing  35 pitches. I know a lot of people are thinking that it means the lowest threshold, but it's threshold reached during the at bat.

 

I think the rule is a big move in the right direction. 

 

[basejester]

Great post.

Couple of fun facts about the rule change:

 

 

1. If the pitcher is removed during an at bat this rule does not apply. i.e. pitcher starts at bat with 18 pitches, 4 pitches into the at bat the pitcher is removed. Pitch count for pitcher 22. The rule only applys if one of the three conditions happen.

That's a little goofy. Now a coach is motivated to leave a player in the game to maintain his eligibility. The most likely scenario for removing a kid before finishing a batter is some borderline injury. E.g., a player grabs his elbow on pitch 21.

[EMump]

Great post.

Couple of fun facts about the rule change:

 

 

1. If the pitcher is removed during an at bat this rule does not apply. i.e. pitcher starts at bat with 18 pitches, 4 pitches into the at bat the pitcher is removed. Pitch count for pitcher 22. The rule only applys if one of the three conditions happen.

That's a little goofy. Now a coach is motivated to leave a player in the game to maintain his eligibility. The most likely scenario for removing a kid before finishing a batter is some borderline injury. E.g., a player grabs his elbow on pitch 21.

The rule change was to stop the constant pitching changes in the middle of an at bat.

 

If a pitcher grabs an elbow or is almost injured, odds are they need at least a days rest anyway.

[midwayll]

 

Couple of fun facts about the rule change:

 

2. If the pitcher reaches the next threshold during the at bat the higher days rest must be observed. i.e. pitcher starts at bat 19 pitches and has a 17 pitch at bat. the pitcher would need to observe the higher days rest for throwing  35 pitches. I know a lot of people are thinking that it means the lowest threshold, but it's threshold reached during the at bat.

 

I think the rule is a big move in the right direction. 

 

 

 

What if the pitcher throws 15 pitches for a total of 34?  Does he observe no days because he threw 20 or less before starting the next at bat?  Or does he face 1 day since he crossed the second threshold of 21-35 during the at bat?

[kylejt]

No days rest, per the wording of the rules.

[basejester]

The rule change was to stop the constant pitching changes in the middle of an at bat.

 

If a pitcher grabs an elbow or is almost injured, odds are they need at least a days rest anyway.

Of course he does. There's never a case in the old rules where throwing additional pitches decreases the required rest. Now there is. This seems like an unintended consequence.

[EMump]

A pitcher that has reached their limit has always been able to complete the at bat or inning.

 

 

Injury can happen at any pitch count. No rule change can force a coach to use good judgment when it comes to managing their pitching staff.

 

 

There could be one off situations, the situations could happen under any pitching rule.

 

[basejester]

A pitcher that has reached their limit has always been able to complete the at bat or inning.

 

 

Injury can happen at any pitch count. No rule change can force a coach to use good judgment when it comes to managing their pitching staff.

 

 

There could be one off situations, the situations could happen under any pitching rule.

All true, but irrelevant to the point I'm making.

[Rich Ives]

 

Couple of fun facts about the rule change:

 

2. If the pitcher reaches the next threshold during the at bat the higher days rest must be observed. i.e. pitcher starts at bat 19 pitches and has a 17 pitch at bat. the pitcher would need to observe the higher days rest for throwing  35 pitches. I know a lot of people are thinking that it means the lowest threshold, but it's threshold reached during the at bat.

 

I think the rule is a big move in the right direction. 

 

 

 

What if the pitcher throws 15 pitches for a total of 34?  Does he observe no days because he threw 20 or less before starting the next at bat?  Or does he face 1 day since he crossed the second threshold of 21-35 during the at bat?

 

 

There  is a discussion on this on the LL Facebook discussions.

 

The rule says the rest is based on the threshold you reach during the at bat. To most of us that means if he hit 20 but not 35 it would be no rest but would be one day as soon as he threw pitch 35 as it's the next threshold.

[midwayll]

 

 

Couple of fun facts about the rule change:

 

2. If the pitcher reaches the next threshold during the at bat the higher days rest must be observed. i.e. pitcher starts at bat 19 pitches and has a 17 pitch at bat. the pitcher would need to observe the higher days rest for throwing  35 pitches. I know a lot of people are thinking that it means the lowest threshold, but it's threshold reached during the at bat.

 

I think the rule is a big move in the right direction. 

 

 

 

What if the pitcher throws 15 pitches for a total of 34?  Does he observe no days because he threw 20 or less before starting the next at bat?  Or does he face 1 day since he crossed the second threshold of 21-35 during the at bat?

 

 

There  is a discussion on this on the LL Facebook discussions.

 

The rule says the rest is based on the threshold you reach during the at bat. To most of us that means if he hit 20 but not 35 it would be no rest but would be one day as soon as he threw pitch 35 as it's the next threshold.

 

Thanks, Rich.  This is what I was interpreting as well.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

Couple of fun facts about the rule change:

 

2. If the pitcher reaches the next threshold during the at bat the higher days rest must be observed. i.e. pitcher starts at bat 19 pitches and has a 17 pitch at bat. the pitcher would need to observe the higher days rest for throwing  35 pitches. I know a lot of people are thinking that it means the lowest threshold, but it's threshold reached during the at bat.

 

I think the rule is a big move in the right direction. 

 

 

 

What if the pitcher throws 15 pitches for a total of 34?  Does he observe no days because he threw 20 or less before starting the next at bat?  Or does he face 1 day since he crossed the second threshold of 21-35 during the at bat?

 

 

There  is a discussion on this on the LL Facebook discussions.

 

The rule says the rest is based on the threshold you reach during the at bat. To most of us that means if he hit 20 but not 35 it would be no rest but would be one day as soon as he threw pitch 35 as it's the next threshold.

 

Thanks, Rich.  This is what I was interpreting as well.

 

Some folks got responses from the LL regions.  It only counts as the 20 pitch threshold so no rest. Go figure.

[SoCal Lurker]

Dare one hope that a coach might think that imprudent and think more about the kid and his arm than about the next game?

[basejester]

Dare one hope that a coach might think that imprudent and think more about the kid and his arm than about the next game?

You can hope. If you could count on it, then you wouldn't need pitch count rules at all. The whole idea of rigid standards assumes coaches cannot be trusted to make that judgement.

[MattInVa]

We had our district clinic this past weekend with umpires from our region and umpires with World Series experience.

 

They also confirmed the change.

 

If a pitcher starts an at bat 19, pitches all the way up to and including 34 during that same at bat, he can pitch the next day.  If he hits 35, then he must observe the days of rest requirement for 35.  The same rules apply for all the days of rest thresholds.