Have Internet Umpire Discussion Forums come "Full Circle"

[PeteBooth]

Hi all:

Happy and Safe Holdiays to you and your families.

I have been on the internet dicsussion Forums for approximately 9 years now and have seen many changes.

What got me interested?

In surfing the net and reading various posts, it was apparent how little rules knowledge I had and also didn't know much about authoritative writings and supplimental materials that were used to explain certain rules / situations.

Also, I picked up some pointers on mechanics. Tried some variations from my stance behind the dish and positioning while doing the bases.

It seems as though even in the off-season there was much to talk about.

Now we fast forward to today. What's happened !

1. The Umpire internet discussion Forums became more of an entertaining venue then an umpire venue with various "Trolls" surfing the net. Just look what happened at Gary McGrifths site which at one time was THE best umpire internet Dicssion Forum around. That site is shut down.

I contribute some of this do to the fact that the "free" internet discussion Forums allow one to use any acronym they wish so some "hide" behind the acronym.

2. I think some known contributors of the past (ie; Carl Childress, Dave Hensley et al) have their own PRIVATE Forums or "Umpire Lists" in which to communicate so that TROLLS cannot enter etc.

In Summary: It's very difficult to keep a "puublic" Umpire Internet Discussion Forum "together" these days without constant monitoring etc. Another example of a Forum gone "downhill" is Officiating.com.

What's your take on what's happend to the Umpire Internet Dicussion Forums and eventually will all if not most "fade away" and be replaced by "Umpire Lists" in which you are a member of.

Pete Booth

[ibby135]

Pete-

While I agree with you that many umpires have gone to "private-public" forums, times have changed. Instead of asking others questions (and getting the smart-a** comments from some of the posters on the other sites you travel) we can look up many of the scenarios with an easy search.

My biggest complaint on many of these forums is the attitude that is projected. You cannot expect someone to post a question, get berated for it and then think he/she will stay a member.

[jjb]

I know exactly what you mean, Pete. I’ve been reading these boards for years, (starting with McGriff’s), and it seems that there’s a “shelf life” to these things. They seem to run through these stages:

1. A knowledgeable and well-meaning individual will open a Board, directed at Umpires who want to learn new concepts, share their opinions, and generally hob-nob with other umpires all over the world.

2. A few individuals (and you know who they are) will enter the site, and use it to either self-stroke their own ego, by demeaning new umpires with basic questions,(“Read the Rule Book”), or use the Board as a “look at me, I’m a REAL Umpire” forum.

3. These individuals then are challenged by the original umpires, who then try and quiet the “ego-strokers”, by either humor or a more direct method. This is usually counter-productive, and more ES people join in the group.

4. Eventually, the Administrator will jump in and begin to delete posts, so as to keep order. The ES people will immediately raise the Censorship Flag, and run to other Boards with their complaints. (This is where the Officiating Board is now).

5. Ultimately, the original umpires, who are only here to learn, will tire of the nonsense and either find a new board, or start their own.

As long as these Boards are open to everyone, I think this will continue. I wish I had a solution, but I don’t. It’s just the nature of the Internet. I don’t think we’re a dying breed, because, as long as there are people like you, Warren, Rich and others hang in here, there will be Umpires, both Rookies and veterans alike, who will find you and ask questions. It is what it is....

Thus endeth the sermon……

[Umpire in Chief]

This is a real problem in the internet forum business being public vs. private. You all have made some very valid points. I guess Umpire-Empire is very fortunate as not to attract the types of posters people get sick of... yet. It will happen, its just a matter of time, and I have a plan in place to handle it when, not if, it happens.

My philosophy is that rif-raff will seek its own, and thus if we keep the discussions in good spirits this will alienate those who would want to "troll" will be discouraged. I also believe, and I may be acting naive, that people are generally good natured and will act in accordance with what is expected of them. If the expectations are set then people will meet those expectations.

I have a few theories on how Umpire-Empire will be and do better than other sites.

• Atmosphere -- Have an atmosphere where a rookie can ask a question a veteran umpire would consider simple, and have it answered correctly without attitude or demeaning.
  
  Perfect example very early on I had a question about a batter being hit by a pitch while swinging. I got it wrong on the field. I asked my question and was treated like I had just insulted some one's mother. I didn't know then, but now it's a no-brainer. In a few years that guy who asked the simple question could become even more knowledgeable than those "experienced" umpires who flamed him for asking a simple question.

  
  

• Being accessible - Members need to know who is behind the curtain. Where to turn to if they are having an issue, and have somebody they can hold accountable.
  
• Being responsive - Goes hand in hand with being accessible. If a member has an issue they should be assured they will at least be acknowledged. Maybe something can be done, maybe not. I will say some improvements to the site have come as a direct result of members making suggestions. If you have a suggestion let me know, it can't hurt.
  
• Technology - Using the best technology available to give members the best experience possible
  
• Never become complacent - In the words of Lee Iacocca in a Chrysler or Dodge commercial in the 80's, "You can lead, follow, or get out of the way." Well, I intend on leading by constantly trying to find new/better ways of doing things and making Umpire-Empire different from other sites. The day I say, 'there's nothing more I can do to improve the site' will be the day I close it down; just as the day I stop learning from umpiring is the day I will hang up the gear for good.

But please let me know any suggestions you have to make the site better and get Umpire-Empire to the top of the curve, and stay there.

[PeteBooth]

2. with basic questions,(“Read the Rule Book”),

JJB the aformentioned can be "tricky"

Even when I first started on the internet discussion Forums IMO if you are an umpire you should READ the book FIRST and then ask a question. In other words do some "home-work"

I agree no need for the "bullish" type response that some like to give but on the same token a simple Please read rule 6 and you will find your answer is ok.

Also, there have been instances especially on some FED sites that I visited where posters would pose questions so that they could pass the test and save them time from reading the FED rule/Case book.

Therefore, I agree we should not give a smarta** comment for a simple question but on the same token there is nothing wrong with responding in a manner which tells the poster to read a certain section and THEN if you do not understand something come back for clarification.

Pete Booth

[jjb]

I see your point, Pete. It's difficult to discern between somebody who honestly can't find the answer, and someone who's too da** lazy to look it up. I remember about a year ago, where a guy who had never posted before (another board), started posting, word for word, a number of test questions. He got a number of smart a** answers before he quit. Myself, I just giggled, muttered "nice try"....and didn't answer his question.

Right now, we've got a good thing going here, and I hope it continues. As long as we remember that Nobody's as Smart as Everybody, and that we can differ on opinions without being personal, I think we'll all do just fine.

[Jeff C.]

I was ecstatic when I found umpire forums on the net. I knew if I lurked, I would pick up some pointers and more rules knowledge which is exactly what happened. Now I'm not by any means saying to lurk and not get training. There are a couple of sites that can really flame newbies and there are a couple (like this one) that are really helpful to the newbie. I agree with Pete about reading the rule book before posing a question.

I had a simple situation very similar to Warren's. Ball in the dirt, hits the batter, I simply called dead ball and a ball. I was ignorant of the rule. But before I posted a question, I read the book and realized my mistake.

[mstaylor]

It is good if a guy has access to a rulebook then they should read it first, then once they think they know the rule then ask. As we all know reading the book only will only get you so far. Also, I know from experience, just when I thought I knew something I would learn a wrinkle and have to go back and rethink it. That's why I think both rule study and then discussion of that study is important.

[MCLEOD36]

Guys,

I have a saying, no matter how much milk is shaken, cream rises to the top. It is like these forumns, some guys like hearing themselves speak or write and some guys are there to help. With more games under my belt, say 125 or so, I start looking for fine tuning from guys that have been there or if i can lend a hand i try too. The ribbing that we sometimes get goes with the territory. But like the jobs we do on the field, you can talk about me but NOT my mamma's army boots.

Interacting with Childress or Evans is nice when available, but these forumns do have some very good technicians in it and their advice is appreciated and respected. It is a shame, when the good ones stay on the wayside because some dope wants to interject his ideas or just to as i have learned flame someone.

Again, if we stop learning at what we do, we might as well hang it up. If I can learn in a game situation, I would rather it be a scrimmage, but getting a heads up or some insight from someone that has seen it before, well that to me is priceless. So thanks to Warren, Pete, BT Blue, MSTaylor, Brian and all the guys for posting and for providing insights to the guys that comment or the lurkers. It is appreciated.

Happy New Year....and yes the season starts in Miami in two weeks...

[mstaylor]

Happy New Year....and yes the season starts in Miami in two weeks...

Sure, rub it in. :cheers:

[Stan W.]

I have been around (mostly reading, and an infrequent poster) of umpire websites for years.......I too go back to the McGriff days when that site was in its heyday....

For a while it was the best thing going.........then as most know the place turned into "Dodge City".......the value of the site, the quality of the posters all diminished into the flame wars.....and as such died.....

Periodically I have presented this thought on other websites and I think you all may find some value in it.........

Yes, it would be easier if we could all get along and never disagree. ..But that just doesnt seem to be the nature of umpires....I often recommend Umpire sites to new officials.......with this warning.......THIS IS THE DEEP END OF THE POOL.............It is not for the faint of heart.....Read a while, test the waters, get to know the posters, then hop in........

From the outside it may seem that all umpire websites are all rough and tumble, rude or unforgiving, and examples of that nature can be found.....but the posters can encompass the wide range of umpire experiences accross the board from LL to D1 to Ex- Pros..........If you want quality information delivered from those that are in the game........then these sites are the place for you.....

I am in no way saying we should be abusive or allow new umpires to be abused for simple questions..........

In my recommendations I tell umpires that there are a number of Umpire websites (Again, which many of us frequent) that are more collegial and that they may need to find that one that suits their personality better....

I commend Warren for his efforts here, I think it will pay off in the long run with good strong membership, quality content and peaceful interactions............

Again I have been around the interent websites since the early days...as a daily reader, and infrequent poster........so what is it I want???......what I want is quality rules information, up to date mechanics, gear reviews and quality experiences from those in our fraternity and who understand what it is like out here in the field.

I have been tolerant of posters who were curt, or that may have seem rude because I wanted the information they could impart........I still hope we can do it in an adult manner.... we have a great start here...good people, good content and a stated direction as to conduct......heres to a great 2009 for "The Empire"

Just My .02........

[mstaylor]

I agree with Stan. Many of us have gone through all the different boards. I actually started on an usernet board that featured Carl Childress and many others that the old timers would remember. I started sparring early on and have learned a ton in the process. I found Jim Booth's site from a link on the usenet board, this turned into Eteamz. I started a board to replace Myteams for the guys that didn't want to wad through the phlem on the Eteamz. Once it settled down there my board died out.

Personally I don't think the boards have run their course. I do believe they have changed and for the better, they are still good places for new guys to go and learn faster than I was ever able. Never fear disagreeing with somebody as long as it's done cordially. If people didn't disagree then the boards would die.

[DonInKansas]

For a while it was the best thing going.........then as most know the place turned into "Dodge City".......the value of the site, the quality of the posters all diminished into the flame wars.....and as such died.....

Hey, that's not funny; I umpire in Dodge City and it's a nice town. (No seriously, I do. )

I discovered officiating.com about 3 years ago while searching for umpiring related stuff online. I never thought that I could find places that a bunch of umpires could get together, discuss rules, mechanics, and the like. When I first started umpiring in 1997 I was basically just thrown on the field in a blue shirt and they hoped I'd get it right. Within an hour of reading some forums I was able to think back on a lot of plays that I got wrong and didn't even know it. Yes, I read the rulebook, but as an 18 year old just trying to make some summer bucks while staying connected to a game I love, I didn't read as close as I should have. I thought, and I'm sure there's a lot of people that can echo this idea, "I've been watching this game since I was 5 years old! I know the rules!"

After beginning to read some of these forums, along with new ones I have discovered (this being one) I like to think that I have grown tremendously as an umpire. I don't have the benefit of being in an area with an association or the time/money to go to the big camps that some get to. I had to cold-call schools and ADs to see if they're looking for help.

It's like anything else when reading around; especially the internet; you have to be able to filter out the junk or stuff that doesn't apply to you and keep the good stuff you can use. I've asked some questions that I look back now and think "how did I not know that?" I try to remember this every time I read a post by a rookie trying to get some simple rules knowledge. If everyone, especially the "high and mighty" types, thought back to the days when they were doing their first plate or the first time they kicked one and the second guessing they did to themselves, it would be a nicer, more tolerant Umpire Forums.

For the most part, I like to think we're here to share ideas and get better. I know I am.

~~Don

[catoblue]

:)

Umpire boards aren't alone either. I belong to numerous forums for several topics of interest, and they all generally start out with folks who, while different, are like-minded enough to know they are there to share knowledge and experience, along with learning new stuff. Everyone obtains the benefits they're looking for. Then along come new members, some fit right in and understand the purpose of the board, then there are the Ego Strokers, the Belligerent Cuss's, and the Holier-than-thou's, who come along and disrupt things. I've left a number of forums when these characters have been allowed to take over.

Right now I belong to 3 umpire forums, and right now this one is the best place to ask a question without getting flamed. I umpire LL - that's it. When I come across something that isn't addressed in the rules, or is subject to interpretation, I like having a place where I can ask the question and receive meaningful replies from people who have more experience than me. I really can't stand it when a teen-ump asks a question on one of the other boards and get's blasted by a dozen guys that have been umping for years. And we wonder why there's a shortage of umpires? Had the internet been around when I started out as a teen, and I had received such a rotten welcome from people I came to ask advice from, you can bet I'd have found something other than umpiring to do.

To Warren and the moderators, you've got a great board here. Keep up the good work.

[Umpire in Chief]

Thanks for the kind words.

Unfortunately as a Little League umpire, you've probably been the target of some ridicule elsewhere. This is a real shame because while the LL in my area is paid, I wouldn't lump all umpires into a group by the type of ball they call. I've seen some high school guys who have left me drop jawed .

There's good and bad at all levels of amateur umpiring. People choose to work various levels for a number of reasons, and to each his own. Unfortunately LL can provide an easy target for those looking to belittle others. I do not believe it is the individuals fault most often. They are volunteers who are often given little if any training, and haven't become savvy of umpiring, but they are out there and trying. I'll take a partner who F:censored:s everything up but is trying over an I don't give a S:censored:partner any day. Because they are volunteers they often do not have their own equipment and what they use can be in poor repair or not meet the standards of "better" umpires. But do you expect a volunteer to shell out $500+ for equipment???

It's a shame that this has become the norm when discussing LL umps.

[mstaylor]

catoblue: Feel free to ask anything about any level including LL. I am the LL expert but I have experience fromm LL to D1 and adult semi-pro. I started in LL 35 years ago as a teenager so I am well equainted with the pressures put on young umpires. I also was throw on the field and left to figure it out. It wasn't until I joined the HS group and started to attend clinics and studying the rules.

As Warren points out there are good and bad at every level, paid and unpaid. I don't want to start the paid vs unpaid argument but many guys on the internet equate unpaid with bad. This couldn't be further from the truth.

Feel free to let anyone you see being flamed or talk to locally about the site.

Stan and I are both trainers in our areas have both lamented the fact that we didn't have access to sites like this when we were just learning. We both agree we would have progressed much faster and been better if we had.

[catoblue]

Thanks guys... all the more reason I visit here much more often than other boards.

I only do LL games because I also coach LL and just don't have availability to do other levels, but have been calling LL games off and on for the last 25 years. We get some teen umps every couple years and I do what I can to mentor them, along with getting them to attend the district clinics with me.

Right now, this is the only forum I would point a real newbie to, because I want them to continue umping and learning - I don't want them to get chased away.

As for me, I don't get upset when somebody flames me, but I do get a bit frustrated when I ask a question and everybody is so engaged in busting my chops that they all forget to answer the question. I've read through OBR a number of times, but never having worked a game that goes by OBR, there are things I ask questions on. I've never looked at a FED rulebook - so I don't ask FED questions (and from what I read on the forums, it changes so often that keeping up with FED changes is a full time job by itself).

[Jeff C.]

I agree that this site is more user friendly and you have more of a chance to get a good straightforward answer without any judgement. If we newbies didn't ask questions, how could we learn? I'm reasonably certain that I'm going to ask a "stupid" question, if you get my drift, in the future. By stupid, it's an obvious question to a veteran. I'll just try and not ask too many! That's why I'm here, to listen, learn and ask questions.