Out of Play

[Mudder]

On a diamond that is not fully enclosed (I normally play on fully enclosed fields) , so fence lines extented for out of play territory in the outfield

No runners, batter hits a line drive base hit down the left field line. F7 is ranging toward the line to field the hard line drive, and it bounces off his glove goes into foul territory and eventually out of play. BR has not reached 2B when the ball goes out of play.

Place the runner?

Is it....any play by outfielder - 2 bases from TOT, so BR would be placed at 3B as he had not reached 2B, if he had passed 2B when the ball went OOP then he would be awarded home, correct?

In the same sitch above, except the base hit goes out out of play on its own (not touched by F7) becasue its curving so much, then this would be a ground rule double correct?

[noumpere]

If the ball was still moving, the two bases TOP -- soi second, but if the ball had stopped or nearly so then two bases TOT so third base

[Dragon29]

noumpere - gotta disagree with you here.

I don't see F7's deflection as a throw, so I'd say two bases from TOP, so it doesn't matter where the BR was when the deflection occurred.

Second sitch - same result - same reasoning.

I would only care about where the BR was if the outfielder actually secured the ball and made a throw. If he doesn't make a throw, there can be no TOT

[grayhawk]

I believe Noumpere's correct. A "throw" is not required for bases to be awarded TOT. If a batted ball comes to a stop and a fielder (let's say F7) accidentally kicks it into DBT, the award is going to be two bases TOT. If the force of the batted ball, on a deflection, causes the ball to go into DBT, the award will be two bases TOP. The ball does not have to come to a complete stop - it's a judgment call by the umpire as to whether or not the award should be TOT or TOP.

[Jocko]

Ground rule double in both cases

[mstaylor]

If the deflection is part of the hit then it is TOP. As mentioned, if the ball stops and then the deflection happens, that is TOI. That rarely happens.

[mrumpiresir]

Ground rule double in both cases

In neither case would it be a ground rule double.

It will be two bases according to rule, either second or third base depending on the impetus that caused the ball to go out of play. Noumpere, grayhawk and mstaylor have it right.

I know "ground rule double" is often used to describe any two base award when a ball goes out of play because this is what announcers often incorrectly say, and the public learns the rules from announcers. As umptres we need to be precise and use the corrrect terminology.

[Jocko]

Ground rule double in both cases

In neither case would it be a ground rule double.

It will be two bases according to rule, either second or third base depending on the impetus that caused the ball to go out of play. Noumpere, grayhawk and mstaylor have it right.

I know "ground rule double" is often used to describe any two base award when a ball goes out of play because this is what announcers often incorrectly say, and the public learns the rules from announcers. As umptres we need to be precise and use the corrrect terminology.

then more correctly it's a 2 base error. Potato-potahto

[Rich Ives]

Can you deflect a ball that has stopped moving? I think not.

So if the ball was deflected then it was still moving and per rule it's 2 bases TOP.

If it stops first then gets kicked it's 2 bases TOK.

[Mudder]

^{so in my} OP^{, ball deflected} OOP^{, the consensus here seems to be, the deflection of the ball} OOP ^{is essestially "part of the hit" and it should be 2 bases from} TOP ^{(2B), I put him on 3B so based on most of the responses here I guess I was wrong.}

[Jocko]

^{so in my} OP^{, ball deflected} OOP^{, the consensus here seems to be, the deflection of the ball} OOP ^{is essestially "part of the hit" and it should be 2 bases from} TOP ^{(2B), I put him on 3B so based on most of the responses here I guess I was wrong.}

techniically incorrect. Apparently you "sold" it without much complaint, since there's not a concurrent post in EJs. Lol

[Dragon29]

While I concur w/grayhawk's assertion that it is possible to have a TOT award without a 'throw' (as he describes) that's not what the OP was about. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised there was so much discussion on this. Nowhere in the OP does it say the ball came to rest. Hit or deflected OOP=2 bases from TOP.

[mrumpiresir]

Ground rule double in both cases

In neither case would it be a ground rule double.

It will be two bases according to rule, either second or third base depending on the impetus that caused the ball to go out of play. Noumpere, grayhawk and mstaylor have it right.

I know "ground rule double" is often used to describe any two base award when a ball goes out of play because this is what announcers often incorrectly say, and the public learns the rules from announcers. As umptres we need to be precise and use the corrrect terminology.

then more correctly it's a 2 base error. Potato-potahto

It may or may not be an error. fact is I don't care how it's scored, I need to know where to place the runners.

And it really isn't potato potahto. You wouldn't call a ball fouled to the backstop a foul tip (as most announcers do), so why would you call a book rule double a ground rule double?

Just trying to make the point that we as umpires must use the correct terminology.

[Jocko]

Ground rule double in both cases

In neither case would it be a ground rule double.

It will be two bases according to rule, either second or third base depending on the impetus that caused the ball to go out of play. Noumpere, grayhawk and mstaylor have it right.

I know "ground rule double" is often used to describe any two base award when a ball goes out of play because this is what announcers often incorrectly say, and the public learns the rules from announcers. As umptres we need to be precise and use the corrrect terminology.

then more correctly it's a 2 base error. Potato-potahto

It may or may not be an error. fact is I don't care how it's scored, I need to know where to place the runners.

And it really isn't potato potahto. You wouldn't call a ball fouled to the backstop a foul tip (as most announcers do), so why would you call a book rule double a ground rule double?

Just trying to make the point that we as umpires must use the correct terminology.

if you don't care how it's scored, and all that matters is proper runner placement, why you splitting hairs? It's a 2 base award.

[mrumpiresir]

Can you deflect a ball that has stopped moving? I think not.

So if the ball was deflected then it was still moving and per rule it's 2 bases TOP.

If it stops first then gets kicked it's 2 bases TOK.

I have to mildly disagree here. A ball that is still moving that, in the umpires judgement, will

[Jocko]

Homerun or 4 base error?

Splitting hairs. End result is the same. I'm not keeping the book, they can put what they want.

[mrumpiresir]

if you don't care how it's scored, and all that matters is proper runner placement, why you splitting hairs? It's a 2 base award.

One more time. As an educator, I think it's important to use the proper term.

If you don't feel this is important, press on.

[Rich Ives]

Homerun or 4 base error?

Splitting hairs. End result is the same. I'm not keeping the book, they can put what they want.

HR

10.06(e ) Ball left the field in flight.

[mstaylor]

What most call a ground rule double are in fact doubles mandated in the rules so it is technically a book rue double. A ground rule double is a double awarded because of some unique field condition the requires a special ground rule. Ground rule doubles are actually fairly rare but almost all awarded doubles are called ground rule doubles. Not earth shattering but a fact.

[Jocko]

Note the OP description of the lines extended. This should be covered in the plate meeting. Ie, a ground rule. ala, ground rule double.

[mrumpiresir]

Note the OP description of the lines extended. This should be covered in the plate meeting. Ie, a ground rule. ala, ground rule double.

OK, good point. But all fields I have ever worked on that weren't enclosed has the "ground rule" of the lines extended. As you said earlier, a batted or thrown ball that goes out of play is still a two base award by the rule book, not by any special ground rule. A ground rule is meant to cover anything the book does not, such as a tree hanging over live ball territory, or wires passing over the field.

Too many people also refer to a batted ball that bounces once and goes over an outfield fence as a ground rule double when it is not. I just think we need to be able to differentiate between a book rule and a ground rule.

[mstaylor]

I'll give you that one Trout, the OOP lines are ground rules. But generally in the groung rules we tell coaches, that line is the OOP line, if it's fair and goes past it, it will be book rule. So at that point, it's a tweener. :)

[Jocko]

:) :)

[Jocko]

Note the OP description of the lines extended. This should be covered in the plate meeting. Ie, a ground rule. ala, ground rule double.

OK, good point. But all fields I have ever worked on that weren't enclosed has the "ground rule" of the lines extended. As you said earlier, a batted or thrown ball that goes out of play is still a two base award by the rule book, not by any special ground rule. A ground rule is meant to cover anything the book does not, such as a tree hanging over live ball territory, or wires passing over the field.

Too many people also refer to a batted ball that bounces once and goes over an outfield fence as a ground rule double when it is not. I just think we need to be able to differentiate between a book rule and a ground rule.

I will stipulate to that.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Ground rule double in both cases

I will disagree.. it is a 2 base award from the time of pitch.