force play slide rule

[th3]

fed (but always welcome obr comments as well)...runner on 1st...grounder to 2nd who throws to short for out at 2nd...runner, out by a few steps, comes in standing up...no contact and he has slowed way down...the ss does not make an attempt to throw, probably becuase the runner was in the way...what criteria am i using for determing interference on the runner? for example if it was a slow roller and they would not have gotten the DP, am i still calling interference (and in that instance does it matter if the ss attempts a throw or not?)

[cookie]

fed (but always welcome obr comments as well)...runner on 1st...grounder to 2nd who throws to short for out at 2nd...runner, out by a few steps, comes in standing up...no contact and he has slowed way down...the ss does not make an attempt to throw, probably becuase the runner was in the way...what criteria am i using for determing interference on the runner? for example if it was a slow roller and they would not have gotten the DP, am i still calling interference (and in that instance does it matter if the ss attempts a throw or not?)

If the runner comes in standing up, there are two criteria:

Did he make contact with the fielder? or

Did he alter the play?

According to your observation (OP), the fielder did not make a throw "probably because the runner was in the way." In Fed, you have INT, but you're going to have to sell it and explain it to the offensive coach.

[semper_fi_72]

The purpose of the FPSR is to avoid contact with the FIELDER.

It does not state the runner must provide the fielder with a throwing lane.

No contact = No Violation

Try selling anything else and you may have a big argument and a EJ that you didn't need and could have been avoided.

[UmpJM]

semper_fi,

I find cookie's description more complete and accurate.

no contact AND no alteration = no violation.

8-4-2b says the runner is both constrained from illegal contact if he does not legally slide AND from "illegal alteration" of the fielder's attempt to make a play. It then goes on to say that when "forced" the definition of a legal slide is ('...or, on a force play...") that the runner is out if he does not slide in a direct line between bases when force. Which , at first glance, suggests that he can't come in standing up when forced.

But, then we see 8-4-2b1 which gives the runner the option of sliding "away from the play" and

8-4-2b2 which says the runner is NEVER required to slide, but if he chooses to, the slide must be legal.

What's an umpire to do? First it says when forced he must slide directly to the base and if he fails to any contact or alteration of play is a violation, then it says he's NEVER required to slide.

Well, looking a little further we find 8-4-2f, which says that if a runner has just been retired on a force play, and he fails to slide AND does not attempt to "...avoid the fielder OR the play...", he is liable.

For further clarification, we see that 2-32-1 clarifies that though a forced runner may, indeed, come in standing up, if he so elects, he must "...run in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact OR altering the play of the fielder. ...".

If a forced runner comes in standing up directly to the base and, in the umpire's judgment, alters the play of the pivot man, it's an FPSR violation.

JM

[th3]

so if you think there would be no play at 1st anyway (i.e. slowly hit ball) you would/could judge that the runner did not alter the play of the pivot man?

[UmpJM]

th3,

Not exactly.

That is, a judgment of whether they had a reasonable chance of getting the BR at 1B is irrelevant to the call.

However, if you judge that the pivot man chose not to TRY because HE didn't think he had a chance - rather than because the retired runner was in his throwing lane - I believe that would be relevant. Because then the umpire's judgment would be that the runner's action did not "alter the play".

Perhaps a subtle distinction.

JM

[Mudder]

th3,

Not exactly.

That is, a judgment of whether they had a reasonable chance of getting the BR at 1B is irrelevant to the call.

However, if you judge that the pivot man chose not to TRY because HE didn't think he had a chance - rather than because the retired runner was in his throwing lane - I believe that would be relevant. Because then the umpire's judgment would be that the runner's action did not "alter the play".

Perhaps a subtle distinction.

JM

Sounds like a lot to consider...and how does OBR differ?

[UmpTTS43]

In FED and NCAA, your judgement on whether the DP could have been successfully completed has no bering on the INT call. This is a safety rule. If R1 interferes, R1 and BR are out regardless if the play could have been completed.

[JaxRolo]

I agree that no throw is necessary and the above posts explain it well.

[UmpJM]

mudder,

It seems like it, but in actual practice it's usually pretty clear-cut.

OBR does not have a Force Play Slide Rule, per se.

Under OBR, the forced runner may intentionally slide into the pivot man, as long as his slide is within "reach" of the base. Also, he is free to come into the base standing up, and it is expected that the the pivot man will find a throwing lane around him. If he moves into that lane (out of his basepath) he's liable to take a throw to the face.

JM

[sdix00]

Last night, HS Legion, One man mechanics. R1, 1 out.

GB to F6 and 3BC yells "Break it up!", and all that does is remind me to pay attention to the slide, and sure enough, R1 blows up F4.

DP, easy call. End of inning. Thanks for the heads up, coach.

[Rich Ives]

Last night, HS Legion, One man mechanics. R1, 1 out.

GB to F6 and 3BC yells "Break it up!", and all that does is remind me to pay attention to the slide, and sure enough, R1 blows up F4.

DP, easy call. End of inning. Thanks for the heads up, coach.

Careful Dix - Legion uses the NCAA rule and in that rule the runner can slide through the base and make contact beyond it and it's legal. The fielder is only proteced to the sides of the bag.

[noumpere]

Last night, HS Legion, One man mechanics. R1, 1 out.

GB to F6 and 3BC yells "Break it up!", and all that does is remind me to pay attention to the slide, and sure enough, R1 blows up F4.

DP, easy call. End of inning. Thanks for the heads up, coach.

Im not saying this happened in your play but it is possible for the runner to legally "break it up" and / or "blow up F4" depending on exactly what happened. Sometimes for example F4 comes straight down the line toward first or strays on the base and a legal but hard slide makes contact with the fielder adn disrupts the play.

[Rich Ives]

semper_fi,

I find cookie's description more complete and accurate.

no contact AND no alteration = no violation.

8-4-2b says the runner is both constrained from illegal contact if he does not legally slide AND from "illegal alteration" of the fielder's attempt to make a play. It then goes on to say that when "forced" the definition of a legal slide is ('...or, on a force play...") that the runner is out if he does not slide in a direct line between bases when force. Which , at first glance, suggests that he can't come in standing up when forced.

But, then we see 8-4-2b1 which gives the runner the option of sliding "away from the play" and

8-4-2b2 which says the runner is NEVER required to slide, but if he chooses to, the slide must be legal.

What's an umpire to do? First it says when forced he must slide directly to the base and if he fails to any contact or alteration of play is a violation, then it says he's NEVER required to slide.

Well, looking a little further we find 8-4-2f, which says that if a runner has just been retired on a force play, and he fails to slide AND does not attempt to "...avoid the fielder OR the play...", he is liable.

For further clarification, we see that 2-32-1 clarifies that though a forced runner may, indeed, come in standing up, if he so elects, he must "...run in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact OR altering the play of the fielder. ...".

If a forced runner comes in standing up directly to the base and, in the umpire's judgment, alters the play of the pivot man, it's an FPSR violation.

JM

Somewhere there is a case play or clarification that says if the runner is only about half way to 2B there is no need to peel off or avoid altering. At the time it came out there was an unresolved debate as to how far is far enough.

[UmpJM]

The actual case play you allude to actually said "less than" halfway. To my knowledge, the debate remains unresolved.

JM

[sdix00]

Last night, HS Legion, One man mechanics. R1, 1 out.

GB to F6 and 3BC yells "Break it up!", and all that does is remind me to pay attention to the slide, and sure enough, R1 blows up F4.

DP, easy call. End of inning. Thanks for the heads up, coach.

Im not saying this happened in your play but it is possible for the runner to legally "break it up" and / or "blow up F4" depending on exactly what happened. Sometimes for example F4 comes straight down the line toward first or strays on the base and a legal but hard slide makes contact with the fielder adn disrupts the play.

Thanks for that. I am aware that legion uses the NCAA version of the FPSR.

This one was illegal because he took out the fielder on the side of the bag, pro style. I should have mentioned that. I took the proper enforcement for granted.

[Umpire in Chief]

^^^

IE not like Justin Upton's barrel roll into Matsui in the 2007 NCLS -- tried to find video no luck -- Thunderheads???