Appeal on Possible Checked Swing/Dropped 3rd Strike

[HokieUmp]

What should you, as the BU, do when you have a less-than-competent PU ask for your opinion on a check-swing that he has already ruled as a strike? Just reiterate the strike call? Or call time, confer quietly with the PU telling him that a strike call on a check-swing is not appealable so that he can both inform the defense of that rule, and learn it for himself?

I say - aimed at the coach who clearly yelled "Check that" and is either a dumb- or wise-ass - what they taught at umpire school:

"Check swing strikes are not appealable."

And give no further signal.

I wouldn't do it to embarrass the plate guy, but if it does, I'm not losing sleep over it. (He really should know that.) I'm doing that to shut down the magpies sitting in the dugouts.

Sorry, TT43 - I just saw that you already summed it up.

[umpire_scott]

I realize that I was wrong in the check swing strike being open to appeal. As I've said I have had umpires come to me on that and I've always just agreed with them. If they knew the rule they've probably simply figured they would come to me, and affirm it and we'd move on. In retrospect that's a very bad strategy because it explicitly states that you cannot appeal a swinging strike call.

My opinion regarding the emphatic "no he didn't" is not a black and white situation. Check swings are almost NEVER black and white. Half the time the BU is not even at a good angle to make an accurate call (i.e. "C" position with a RH batter, "A" or "B" with a LH batter). So in those cases where I'm only giving my OPINION on whether I thought he went, and I'm doing so after the PU emphatically stated "no he didn't" and then only went to me for help when requested to do so by the catcher, I'm more than likely going to affirm his call. There are circumstances where I would not do this. If in my opinion he clearly missed it then I'll overrule it. But if it's close and I'm not 100% certain that I saw him swing, plus the game situation is not remotely critical, I'm just going to affirm his call even if "I think" he went.

It seems some of you on here have this complex that you are infallible and all less experienced umpires and posters need to just listen to you and then change their ways based on your responses. You get offended if they offer anything that implies playing devil's advocate. I'm not sure why this is the case.

Ironically when I talk to umpires about these situations in person they seldom have the responses that I get on these boards. And I'm careful to ask them as situations, never telling them on which side of the argument I'm on.

[wek29]

Let me be clear, I never go to my partner on a check swing that I call a strike. But I have had PU do this when the catcher asked them to. I, of course, have always signaled strike. I also go to my BU immediately with an emphatic "did he go" on any questionable check swings. But not all PU's do this. So when I'm on the bases if the PU comes to me, and it's for help on a call that he had confidently and emphatically made I'm going to think long and hard about overturning the call because it will make him look bad. That's all I'm saying. This is never an issue when I'm the PU, because I don't generally put myself in those situations.

I think I'd be very confused if a catcher wanted me to appeal this...I might have to tell him, "You're right, he didn't go..." and call it a ball I can't imagine them wanting to give up a strike...

[umpire_scott]

Let me be clear, I never go to my partner on a check swing that I call a strike. But I have had PU do this when the catcher asked them to. I, of course, have always signaled strike. I also go to my BU immediately with an emphatic "did he go" on any questionable check swings. But not all PU's do this. So when I'm on the bases if the PU comes to me, and it's for help on a call that he had confidently and emphatically made I'm going to think long and hard about overturning the call because it will make him look bad. That's all I'm saying. This is never an issue when I'm the PU, because I don't generally put myself in those situations.

I think I'd be very confused if a catcher wanted me to appeal this...I might have to tell him, "You're right, he didn't go..." and call it a ball I can't imagine them wanting to give up a strike...

I realized how stupid that sounded too after I said it. Was hoping no one would catch it.

I'm probably thinking of the "no he didn't" appeals not "yes he did". Or there may have been a situation where a coach has requested it.

[SoCal Lurker]

I think I'd be very confused if a catcher wanted me to appeal this...I might have to tell him, "You're right, he didn't go..." and call it a ball I can't imagine them wanting to give up a strike...

Putting aside that it's not an appealable call, there are times that the defense would like the strike changed to a ball: 0-2, pitch in the dirt, batter safe at first on the DK3 -- defense would (usually) \ much rather have a ball and a 1-2 count than the runner safe at first. . . .

[zm1283]

I realize that I was wrong in the check swing strike being open to appeal. As I've said I have had umpires come to me on that and I've always just agreed with them. If they knew the rule they've probably simply figured they would come to me, and affirm it and we'd move on. In retrospect that's a very bad strategy because it explicitly states that you cannot appeal a swinging strike call.

My opinion regarding the emphatic "no he didn't" is not a black and white situation. Check swings are almost NEVER black and white. Half the time the BU is not even at a good angle to make an accurate call (i.e. "C" position with a RH batter, "A" or "B" with a LH batter). So in those cases where I'm only giving my OPINION on whether I thought he went, and I'm doing so after the PU emphatically stated "no he didn't" and then only went to me for help when requested to do so by the catcher, I'm more than likely going to affirm his call. There are circumstances where I would not do this. If in my opinion he clearly missed it then I'll overrule it. But if it's close and I'm not 100% certain that I saw him swing, plus the game situation is not remotely critical, I'm just going to affirm his call even if "I think" he went.

There is nothing wrong with getting strikes on a check swing in either of those situations. I got a one for strike three on a LH batter from "A" to end an inning the other night.

It seems some of you on here have this complex that you are infallible and all less experienced umpires and posters need to just listen to you and then change their ways based on your responses. You get offended if they offer anything that implies playing devil's advocate. I'm not sure why this is the case.

Ironically when I talk to umpires about these situations in person they seldom have the responses that I get on these boards. And I'm careful to ask them as situations, never telling them on which side of the argument I'm on.

1. None of us are infallible.

2. I'm not offended. I'm just telling you how this is done at the college and MiLB level and by trained umpires. If you want to keep doing it your way, go ahead.

3. I would be leery of talking to anyone you run across. You'll get 50 different answers and most of them will be wrong. Find a few guys that know what they're doing and rely on them for advice and to bounce questions off of.

[Replacematt]

Half the time the BU is not even at a good angle to make an accurate call (i.e. "C" position with a RH batter, "A" or "B" with a LH batter).

Wrong, again.

It seems some of you on here have this complex that you are infallible and all less experienced umpires and posters need to just listen to you and then change their ways based on your responses. You get offended if they offer anything that implies playing devil's advocate. I'm not sure why this is the case.

No, you just refuse to listen to those who are more knowledgeable.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Umpire _ scott.. you can come on to a message board asking for advice/opinions and when guys give it, get angry.. there are some really, really knowledgeable guys on this site.. this is the best one in the country, no bashing cussing.. or any other crap like that.. but asking people to ask nice, will not get you far...

no to the OP...

you need to ask the base Umpire right away, so it will give the batter, and catcher a chance to make a play. there is no need to wait for a player or coach to ask you..

In College baseball by rule if the umpire is ask to seek help on a check swing he must.

[Jocko]

Yankees/BoSux game Sunday. The great Angel Hernandez, one of my personal favorites, on the dish. Chris Stewart points to U1 asking for an appeal. Angel said something under his mask, but did not appeal.

As for appealing check swings to partner in "B" or "C" in 2 man, around here noone does it. When in Rome......

[RichMSN]

Yankees/BoSux game Sunday. The great Angel Hernandez, one of my personal favorites, on the dish. Chris Stewart points to U1 asking for an appeal. Angel said something under his mask, but did not appeal.

As for appealing check swings to partner in "B" or "C" in 2 man, around here noone does it. When in Rome......

Rome burned to the ground, too.

If a coach/catcher really presses for an appeal, what would you do? If the coach would protest the game at that point, what would you do?

I'm happy to grab strikes from the middle. I'll ask on *every* check swing, regardless of the rule set (NFHS and LL do not require the plate umpire ask, but I will anyway). I like strikes. And I recognize that I probably get blocked at least once or twice a game. I'm tracking a pitch and that makes it hard to always see the bat.

[Jocko]

Yankees/BoSux game Sunday. The great Angel Hernandez, one of my personal favorites, on the dish. Chris Stewart points to U1 asking for an appeal. Angel said something under his mask, but did not appeal.

As for appealing check swings to partner in "B" or "C" in 2 man, around here noone does it. When in Rome......

Rome burned to the ground, too.

If a coach/catcher really presses for an appeal, what would you do? If the coach would protest the game at that point, what would you do?

I'm happy to grab strikes from the middle. I'll ask on *every* check swing, regardless of the rule set (NFHS and LL do not require the plate umpire ask, but I will anyway). I like strikes. And I recognize that I probably get blocked at least once or twice a game. I'm tracking a pitch and that makes it hard to always see the bat.

situation: OBR mod. RHB, BU in "C". F2 calls for a pitch up, and stands up to receive it. I'm TOTALLY blocked out. B3 looked like he might have gone, but I didn't see it. I go unasked to BU for possible K. He (an evaluator) tells me, "I'm not in position for that appeal." ON THE FIELD! I was humiliated. After the game he explained what I've said about cs appeals. Now, what would I do? Not grant the appeal, and explain why.

[Welpe]

Like I've told you before, this is not how it is done at higher levels and it is wrong. Umpires working NCAA or MiLB games in 2-man get check swings from any position, so why is it not good enough for you?

New umpires: The quoted above is not how it is done at clinics.

I'm new to this area in terms of baseball and when I pregamed with one partner that I'm coming to him for any check swing request, even if he is inside, he nearly choked on his water. Insisted that is wrong, etc. etc. I figured it was just him. Nope it was multiple partners that feel this way. There is work to be done and unfortunately I look like the crazy outsider to these guys.

If PU is going to have his feelings hurt because I changed his call to a strike then I don't think we need to be on the same field together.

Amen. Umpiring is not a popularity contest and I am not out there trying to win friends, positively influence people and build up my self esteem.

I've lost count on the number of pitches I've balled that were swinging strikes on appeal. It happens and I have no problem getting extra strikes. The coaches don't think less of you for it and who gives a hoot if they do.

[Welpe]

situation: OBR mod. RHB, BU in "C". F2 calls for a pitch up, and stands up to receive it. I'm TOTALLY blocked out. B3 looked like he might have gone, but I didn't see it. I go unasked to BU for possible K. He (an evaluator) tells me, "I'm not in position for that appeal." ON THE FIELD! I was humiliated. After the game he explained what I've said about cs appeals. Now, what would I do? Not grant the appeal, and explain why.

Your evaulator needs a clinic or two himself it seems.

[RichMSN]

Yankees/BoSux game Sunday. The great Angel Hernandez, one of my personal favorites, on the dish. Chris Stewart points to U1 asking for an appeal. Angel said something under his mask, but did not appeal.

As for appealing check swings to partner in "B" or "C" in 2 man, around here noone does it. When in Rome......

Rome burned to the ground, too.

If a coach/catcher really presses for an appeal, what would you do? If the coach would protest the game at that point, what would you do?

I'm happy to grab strikes from the middle. I'll ask on *every* check swing, regardless of the rule set (NFHS and LL do not require the plate umpire ask, but I will anyway). I like strikes. And I recognize that I probably get blocked at least once or twice a game. I'm tracking a pitch and that makes it hard to always see the bat.

situation: OBR mod. RHB, BU in "C". F2 calls for a pitch up, and stands up to receive it. I'm TOTALLY blocked out. B3 looked like he might have gone, but I didn't see it. I go unasked to BU for possible K. He (an evaluator) tells me, "I'm not in position for that appeal." ON THE FIELD! I was humiliated. After the game he explained what I've said about cs appeals. Now, what would I do? Not grant the appeal, and explain why.

All I can say is this: I feel sorry for the poor quality of umpires you're forced to work with.

[umpire_scott]

Half the time the BU is not even at a good angle to make an accurate call (i.e. "C" position with a RH batter, "A" or "B" with a LH batter).

Wrong, again.

It seems some of you on here have this complex that you are infallible and all less experienced umpires and posters need to just listen to you and then change their ways based on your responses. You get offended if they offer anything that implies playing devil's advocate. I'm not sure why this is the case.

No, you just refuse to listen to those who are more knowledgeable.

You say I'm wrong again, and then another poster who claims to be "very knowledgeable" posts that no one in his area goes to "B" or "C" for appeals. And another poster said his evaluator told him to not appeal to "B" or "C". Yet I get accused of being obstinate for questioning things when there are different opinions among the "experts".

[RichMSN]

Amen. Umpiring is not a popularity contest and I am not out there trying to win friends, positively influence people and build up my self esteem.

I've lost count on the number of pitches I've balled that were swinging strikes on appeal. It happens and I have no problem getting extra strikes. The coaches don't think less of you for it and who gives a hoot if they do.

Many times if I know I'm blocked and think I may have missed a swing, I'll go *on my own* to my partner. It appears that in some baseball backwaters the 1970s mentality on check swings is still alive and well. Too bad, seriously.

[Jocko]

:Horse:

I quit.......

[RichMSN]

You say I'm wrong again, and then another poster who claims to be "very knowledgeable" posts that no one in his area goes to "B" or "C" for appeals. And another poster said his evaluator told him to not appeal to "B" or "C". Yet I get accused of being obstinate for questioning things when there are different opinions among the "experts".

They (in his area) are wrong, too. There is a right way -- it's the way done by NCAA and MiLB. It's the way currently taught by the professional schools. If you want to hook your wagon on a practice that was discarded as archaic decades ago in most areas, feel free. It just shows me you're more interested in being right than in being told the proper way to do things.

That said, you need to do what the big dogs in your area do while on the field -- it doesn't mean you have to agree with it or argue for it, though.

[umpire_scott]

You say I'm wrong again, and then another poster who claims to be "very knowledgeable" posts that no one in his area goes to "B" or "C" for appeals. And another poster said his evaluator told him to not appeal to "B" or "C". Yet I get accused of being obstinate for questioning things when there are different opinions among the "experts".

They (in his area) are wrong, too. There is a right way -- it's the way done by NCAA and MiLB. It's the way currently taught by the professional schools. If you want to hook your wagon on a practice that was discarded as archaic decades ago in most areas, feel free. It just shows me you're more interested in being right than in being told the proper way to do things.

That said, you need to do what the big dogs in your area do while on the field -- it doesn't mean you have to agree with it or argue for it, though.

What no one seems to understand is that I get differing answers as to what is right and wrong. You stated that this is the way NCAA and MiLB does it. Well number one with the 1-2 extra umpires calling check swings from "B" and "C" happens much less frequently. Number two I don't know you or anyone else on this site. I don't know who the experts are and who they aren't. So how do I know which ones to listen to? Because they tell me they are experts?

And I'm also not sure what "wagon" you are referring to. I've stated that as a PU I have no problem going to any of my partners to ask for help on an appeal, no matter what their position is. However if I emphatically stated "no he didn't" it's because I saw it clearly. If I did not see it or had any doubt then I would make no call and go right to my partner with a "did he go". This way I avoid most situations. But if my partner is making a habit of turning many of my "no he didn'ts" into strikes then we have a problem. He is probably just wanting strikes to get the game over with, which is an integrity issue. And it's especially a problem if he is doing it from "B" or "C" where his angle is not as good anyway. I know you CAN see the check swing from "B" or "C", but anyone that says it's no different from "A" or "D" and I'm wrong for saying it is, then how I can I truly respect them as an expert? How can someone with a straight face call themselves an expert and then say that they can see a check swing on a RH batter from "C" just as well as from "A"?

[umpire_scott]

Amen. Umpiring is not a popularity contest and I am not out there trying to win friends, positively influence people and build up my self esteem.

I've lost count on the number of pitches I've balled that were swinging strikes on appeal. It happens and I have no problem getting extra strikes. The coaches don't think less of you for it and who gives a hoot if they do.

Many times if I know I'm blocked and think I may have missed a swing, I'll go *on my own* to my partner. It appears that in some baseball backwaters the 1970s mentality on check swings is still alive and well. Too bad, seriously.

I go on my own way more often then I rule it myself. So when I say "no he didn't" then in my mind that BU is blowing the call by overruling me. I'm not going to care if he does it once, but if it becomes something where he is doing it frequently then I'm going to wonder why.

I'm just flabbergasted that people are having trouble accepting what I'm saying. I know that umpires need to put their egos away a little. But when a PU emphatically says "no he didn't", I assume he's saying "I saw it clear and he didn't go". So if for instance 3 times in the same game he yells "no he didn't", the catcher asks if he can get help, he goes to his partner and his partner signals strike each time. I find it hard to believe that no PU's would be somewhat miffed by this.

Now if the PU generally calls "no he didn't" on any check swing where he isn't sure of a swing and usually only get help when asked to appeal, then I totally understand the sentiment of not caring if the call got overturned. Maybe this is where the disconnect is coming from?

[noumpere]

What no one seems to understand is that I get differing answers as to what is right and wrong.

We, I mean I lol, understand., On almost every play your going to get some different answers from different guys. You need to decide who to listen to. Posting it over and over and over again isnt all of a sudden going to make everyone all of a sudden agree.

And on this play the philosophy behind it has changed a little over the years and some guys havent kept up. I'll let you figure out who they are.

[RichMSN]

Amen. Umpiring is not a popularity contest and I am not out there trying to win friends, positively influence people and build up my self esteem.

I've lost count on the number of pitches I've balled that were swinging strikes on appeal. It happens and I have no problem getting extra strikes. The coaches don't think less of you for it and who gives a hoot if they do.

Many times if I know I'm blocked and think I may have missed a swing, I'll go *on my own* to my partner. It appears that in some baseball backwaters the 1970s mentality on check swings is still alive and well. Too bad, seriously.

I go on my own way more often then I rule it myself. So when I say "no he didn't" then in my mind that BU is blowing the call by overruling me. I'm not going to care if he does it once, but if it becomes something where he is doing it frequently then I'm going to wonder why.

I'm just flabbergasted that people are having trouble accepting what I'm saying. I know that umpires need to put their egos away a little. But when a PU emphatically says "no he didn't", I assume he's saying "I saw it clear and he didn't go". So if for instance 3 times in the same game he yells "no he didn't", the catcher asks if he can get help, he goes to his partner and his partner signals strike each time. I find it hard to believe that no PU's would be somewhat miffed by this.

Now if the PU generally calls "no he didn't" on any check swing where he isn't sure of a swing and usually only get help when asked to appeal, then I totally understand the sentiment of not caring if the call got overturned. Maybe this is where the disconnect is coming from?

The proper mechanic is, "Ball, no he didn't go" on any checked swing. The base umpire should not be reading anything into that phrase. And the base umpire is never going to "back up" the plate umpire or "overturn" the plate umpire -- an appeal is 100% putting the call in the hands of the base umpire. It's his call to make at that point and if he says it's a strike, the plate guy should smile inside (cause we have one more strike) and advance the little strike wheel on the indicator while saying, "Then it's a strike. 0 balls, 1 strike."

Check swings should never, ever be taken personally.

[umpire_scott]

Amen. Umpiring is not a popularity contest and I am not out there trying to win friends, positively influence people and build up my self esteem.

I've lost count on the number of pitches I've balled that were swinging strikes on appeal. It happens and I have no problem getting extra strikes. The coaches don't think less of you for it and who gives a hoot if they do.

Many times if I know I'm blocked and think I may have missed a swing, I'll go *on my own* to my partner. It appears that in some baseball backwaters the 1970s mentality on check swings is still alive and well. Too bad, seriously.

I go on my own way more often then I rule it myself. So when I say "no he didn't" then in my mind that BU is blowing the call by overruling me. I'm not going to care if he does it once, but if it becomes something where he is doing it frequently then I'm going to wonder why.

I'm just flabbergasted that people are having trouble accepting what I'm saying. I know that umpires need to put their egos away a little. But when a PU emphatically says "no he didn't", I assume he's saying "I saw it clear and he didn't go". So if for instance 3 times in the same game he yells "no he didn't", the catcher asks if he can get help, he goes to his partner and his partner signals strike each time. I find it hard to believe that no PU's would be somewhat miffed by this.

Now if the PU generally calls "no he didn't" on any check swing where he isn't sure of a swing and usually only get help when asked to appeal, then I totally understand the sentiment of not caring if the call got overturned. Maybe this is where the disconnect is coming from?

The proper mechanic is, "Ball, no he didn't go" on any checked swing. The base umpire should not be reading anything into that phrase. And the base umpire is never going to "back up" the plate umpire or "overturn" the plate umpire -- an appeal is 100% putting the call in the hands of the base umpire. It's his call to make at that point and if he says it's a strike, the plate guy should smile inside (cause we have one more strike) and advance the little strike wheel on the indicator while saying, "Then it's a strike. 0 balls, 1 strike."

Check swings should never, ever be taken personally.

Well that may be where the confusion is then. I guess I have not been using the proper mechanic. I generally don't say "no he didn't" if I'm not sure. I go right to my partner. So my "no he didn't" means "I saw it clear and he did not go". Obviously if I said "no he didn't" after every check swing that I did not call a strike then there would be no reason to be offended by my calls being overruled. And I know that technically it's not "overturning" or "backing up", but for the purpose of this thread those semantics are appropriate.

[NFUA_44]

Well that may be where the confusion is then. I guess I have not been using the proper mechanic. I generally don't say "no he didn't" if I'm not sure. I go right to my partner. So my "no he didn't" means "I saw it clear and he did not go". Obviously if I said "no he didn't" after every check swing that I did not call a strike then there would be no reason to be offended by my calls being overruled.

It's not being overturned. It's an appeal requested by the defensive team, an appeal that belongs to your partner, not you. Think of appeals in other situations, each umpire has responsibility for certain ones given the circumstances. Even if you saw it clearly and are convinced he didn't go your partner may have better/different information which is why the call is moved to him in this specific case, much like going to the PU on a pulled foot at 1st. As BU there have been times I would have swore he was on the bag beyond a shadow of a doubt, and yet my partner had different info.

The rest of the issue which I think you may not have a grasp of is that there used to be a very different manner and method of handling the checked swing that all but included Egyptian Hyroglyphics many years ago, and there are still some out there that have parts of that training stuck in their brain. It's obviously very different than current methods, heck as Trout points out there are still entire regions of the country where some semblance of it still exist.

Like most everything else we do learn to adapt as best you can. As you move up through levels and leagues you will start to understand the common practices used in your area, by your association, or just in your state. Some will make sense, others won't, use what works for you and leave the rest behind.

[umpire_scott]

Well that may be where the confusion is then. I guess I have not been using the proper mechanic. I generally don't say "no he didn't" if I'm not sure. I go right to my partner. So my "no he didn't" means "I saw it clear and he did not go". Obviously if I said "no he didn't" after every check swing that I did not call a strike then there would be no reason to be offended by my calls being overruled.

It's not being overturned. It's an appeal requested by the defensive team, an appeal that belongs to your partner, not you. Think of appeals in other situations, each umpire has responsibility for certain ones given the circumstances. Even if you saw it clearly and are convinced he didn't go your partner may have better/different information which is why the call is moved to him in this specific case, much like going to the PU on a pulled foot at 1st. As BU there have been times I would have swore he was on the bag beyond a shadow of a doubt, and yet my partner had different info.

The rest of the issue which I think you may not have a grasp of is that there used to be a very different manner and method of handling the checked swing that all but included Egyptian Hyroglyphics many years ago, and there are still some out there that have parts of that training stuck in their brain. It's obviously very different than current methods, heck as Trout points out there are still entire regions of the country where some semblance of it still exist.

Like most everything else we do learn to adapt as best you can. As you move up through levels and leagues you will start to understand the common practices used in your area, by your association, or just in your state. Some will make sense, others won't, use what works for you and leave the rest behind.

Overturned is just semantics. If the PU calls "ball he didn't go" then then BU is changing the call to a strike then the "ball" is being changed to a strike. That sounds like overturning the original call to me. My point is that in your example of the pulled foot there is no argument that PU does have a better view, then the BU in "C" on a pulled foot. I've been in "C" hundreds of times and I've been PU hundreds of times. I ALWAYS have a better view of a pulled foot from PU. I've also been in "C" hundreds of times on check swings from RH batters, and been the PU hundreds of times for check swings on RH batters. I can tell you that unless the catcher does something to obstruct my view I'd rather make that call from PU every time. So this now accepted mechanic is, in my opinion, taking that call away from the umpire that has the better view. So I will trust my PU partners view on that check swing when I'm in "C" and the batter is RH. I will affirm his call, unless I'm 100% certain that I have a swing.