Appeal on Possible Checked Swing/Dropped 3rd Strike

[Jocko]

I agree with Matt. If he appeals, give him what you got and leave it at that. The conference you initiate will only make both coaches aware that you are asking him what he wants you to call. Credibility is out the window and you both look smitty.

[JaxRolo]

I also agree with Matt. As a BU I always give what I saw.

I once (notice I said once) worked with a BU that told me at pre-game that he would always go with my call.

I won't work with him again.

[UmpTTS43]

check swing strikes are not appealable.

[noumpere]

Maybe you guys are not understanding me.

No, we understand you quite well in this thread and in most of the others that you comment on beginning when you asked as a guest a couple of weeks ago.

[JaxRolo]

check swing strikes are not appealable.

I will ALWAYS agree with him in those cases. If he says nothing and then goes to me, then I'm going to give my honest opinion.

Why even ask if your partner is simply going to agree with you on your call of ball. You wouldn't ask on a called strike from PU.

Maybe you guys are not understanding me. My association tells us that we should pretty much always get help on an appeal when asked because it makes us look like we are approachable. There are two situations here:

Situation #1: Ball comes in batter checks his swing. PU makes no verbal signal, but calls it a ball. Catcher asks PU for help from BU. As the PU I will go to BU and expect his honest answer. As BU I will give PU my honest answer.

Situation #2: Ball comes in batter checks his swing. PU makes verbal call of "Yes he did" and the strike signal. Or "no he didn't". If the catcher asks him to get help from the BU and I'm the BU I'm going to agree with my PU 99% of the time. For me to take an emphatic "yes he did" and change it to a ball makes my PU look like a moron. Now if I think it's a really bad call I might call time and discuss it with him to see what he saw, and how he would feel about changing the call. But I'm not throwing my partner under the bus like that.

If your partner appeals on a call strike then he is the Moron. Those are not appealable!!

[umpire_scott]

Always give your honest opinion. The PU needs to be smart enough that on a two strike pitch, to not say,"No, he didn't go!" He needs to know to say,"Ball, Did he go?" I have ruled a strike even when the PU said he didn't. Sometimes he just doesn't see it very well.

I agree with this. If he says "ball, did he go?" then he is clearly indicating that he wasn't sure. But if he says "ball, no he didn't", he is indicating that he felt he saw it. The only way I'm overruling that is if it's very obvious and likely to draw the ire of the fans and coaches because it's obvious. This is also something that I might pregame with him. Like I said in Arizona it was common to appeal to the BU just to pacify the catcher and coach. But the assumption was that if the PU was unsure he would appeal right away. So if he waited for the catcher, it made the PU look bad. So on anything close I would just agree with him.

[JaxRolo]

Always give your honest opinion. The PU needs to be smart enough that on a two strike pitch, to not say,"No, he didn't go!" He needs to know to say,"Ball, Did he go?" I have ruled a strike even when the PU said he didn't. Sometimes he just doesn't see it very well.

I agree with this. If he says "ball, did he go?" then he is clearly indicating that he wasn't sure. But if he says "ball, no he didn't", he is indicating that he felt he saw it. The only way I'm overruling that is if it's very obvious and likely to draw the ire of the fans and coaches because it's obvious. This is also something that I might pregame with him. Like I said in Arizona it was common to appeal to the BU just to pacify the catcher and coach. But the assumption was that if the PU was unsure he would appeal right away. So if he waited for the catcher, it made the PU look bad. So on anything close I would just agree with him.

Yes he felt he saw it but could he have been wrong? Give him an honest answer!

[umpire_scott]

Situation #2: Ball comes in batter checks his swing. PU makes verbal call of "Yes he did" and the strike signal. Or "no he didn't". If the catcher asks him to get help from the BU and I'm the BU I'm going to agree with my PU 99% of the time. For me to take an emphatic "yes he did" and change it to a ball makes my PU look like a moron. Now if I think it's a really bad call I might call time and discuss it with him to see what he saw, and how he would feel about changing the call. But I'm not throwing my partner under the bus like that.

You're incorrect.

It is the proper mechanic for PU to say that a batter didn't go. This is a statement that indicates he did see the bat move. BU still needs to give him his honest answer. This is not throwing your partner under the bus--it's using the appeal mechanic for its intended purpose.

Initiating a conference on your own is beyond throwing your partner under the bus.

I've never had a situation where a conference was a bad idea, unless they got too numerous. The coaches do not hear you, so they have no idea what you are discussing. I could be discussing the count for all they know. So I do not in any way see how calling a conference would be "throwing my partner under the bus".

One thing I will say is that I am more likely on a "no he didn't" to overrule the call. But I will take into consideration how emphatically he made his call. I'm far less likely to overturn a "yes he did". In that case I'm plainly telling everyone that my partner is claiming to have seen something he didn't really see. At least with a "no he didn't" I'm only telling them I'm seeing something he didn't see. My point is that for a simple ball/strike call where it's close, I'm taking into consideration whether it's worth making my partner look bad to get that one call right (right as I saw it).

[umpire_scott]

Maybe you guys are not understanding me.

No, we understand you quite well in this thread and in most of the others that you comment on beginning when you asked as a guest a couple of weeks ago.

What does that mean? How can you possibly know what all other posters understand and don't understand? Why don't you speak for yourself and yourself only, since that is really all you are truly able to do. I was not being rude or condescending, not sure why you felt the need to respond this way. This is simply a situation where we disagree, but the responses that were being given never addressed what I was stating, so I wanted to make sure people were clear about what I was saying.

[umpire_scott]

Always give your honest opinion. The PU needs to be smart enough that on a two strike pitch, to not say,"No, he didn't go!" He needs to know to say,"Ball, Did he go?" I have ruled a strike even when the PU said he didn't. Sometimes he just doesn't see it very well.

I agree with this. If he says "ball, did he go?" then he is clearly indicating that he wasn't sure. But if he says "ball, no he didn't", he is indicating that he felt he saw it. The only way I'm overruling that is if it's very obvious and likely to draw the ire of the fans and coaches because it's obvious. This is also something that I might pregame with him. Like I said in Arizona it was common to appeal to the BU just to pacify the catcher and coach. But the assumption was that if the PU was unsure he would appeal right away. So if he waited for the catcher, it made the PU look bad. So on anything close I would just agree with him.

Yes he felt he saw it but could he have been wrong? Give him an honest answer!

I would generally prefer this practice, and I would not have a problem if a BU overturned my call. But I've had instances before where a PU felt that my overturning his delayed appeals made him look bad. I think it's clear that there is a difference when a PU goes immediately to his partner with a "did he go?", versus saying "no he didn't", then appealing after the catcher asks him too. I look at those two situations differently. I can assure that most PU's look at those two situations differently as well.

Let me ask this: What if you were in "C" position and it was a RH batter? Do you still give your honest answer? You clearly are in no better position to make that call than the plate umpire is. Are you still going to overrule him, on something that you "think" is the right call?

The point is check swings happen fast. I'm not going to risk making my partner look bad over a simple ball/strike call based on what I "think" is the right call.

[JaxRolo]

Yes from "C" I will give what I have. If I honestly think he went I let him know.

[umpire_scott]

Let me also be clear that I'm not telling anyone on here what they should do. I'm simply telling them what I do. You can look at it as something to consider, or look at it as something you disagree with. Not everything is black and white. It's o.k. for people to do things differently and neither party be right or wrong.

[umpire_scott]

Yes from "C" I will give what I have. If I honestly think he went I let him know.

I will also give him what I honestly saw in a case where he asks immediately. If he makes an emphatic "no he didn't". Then the catcher asks him to come to me for help, I'm not overturning him from a bad position to do it in the first place. I can't believe that you can't see how that would make him look really bad.

[Jocko]

I only give the appeal on check swing on RHBs, and then only when my partner is in "A"

Or on LHB, and then only in 3 man when bU is in "D"

We rarely work 3 man, so LHB check swings are non-existent.

[scrounge]

Yes from "C" I will give what I have. If I honestly think he went I let him know.

I will also give him what I honestly saw in a case where he asks immediately. If he makes an emphatic "no he didn't". Then the catcher asks him to come to me for help, I'm not overturning him from a bad position to do it in the first place. I can't believe that you can't see how that would make him look really bad.

I see what you're saying, even if I don't entirely agree. Though I don't entirely disagree either. It sounds like you're saying when the PU really didn't want to ask or feel it was necessary but did it by request. If he really doesn't want to come to you, he should just wear it and say no. But maybe he's just looking for backup, I dunno.Unless I was positive that he was just mollifying some whiners, I'd come back with my honest answer as to swing or not.

[UmpTTS43]

I'm far less likely to overturn a "yes he did". In that case I'm plainly telling everyone that my partner is claiming to have seen something he didn't really see. At least with a "no he didn't" I'm only telling them I'm seeing something he didn't see. My point is that for a simple ball/strike call where it's close, I'm taking into consideration whether it's worth making my partner look bad to get that one call right (right as I saw it).

You should never overturn a "yes he went". That call is not appealable.

You can get check swings from any position on the field.

[umpire_scott]

Yes from "C" I will give what I have. If I honestly think he went I let him know.

I will also give him what I honestly saw in a case where he asks immediately. If he makes an emphatic "no he didn't". Then the catcher asks him to come to me for help, I'm not overturning him from a bad position to do it in the first place. I can't believe that you can't see how that would make him look really bad.

I see what you're saying, even if I don't entirely agree. Though I don't entirely disagree either. It sounds like you're saying when the PU really didn't want to ask or feel it was necessary but did it by request. If he really doesn't want to come to you, he should just wear it and say no. But maybe he's just looking for backup, I dunno.Unless I was positive that he was just mollifying some whiners, I'd come back with my honest answer as to swing or not.

That's exactly what I was saying. I used to never go for help on a RH batter when my BU was in "C". I would just tell the catcher, "he's not in a position to make that call". Our UIC said that it's better to just pacify the catcher and go to your partner whenever they ask you to. So in cases where it's clear that they are going to me somewhat reluctantly, I'm going to consider the circumstances somewhat when deciding whether to overrule them.

[JaxRolo]

Yes from "C" I will give what I have. If I honestly think he went I let him know.

I will also give him what I honestly saw in a case where he asks immediately. If he makes an emphatic "no he didn't". Then the catcher asks him to come to me for help, I'm not overturning him from a bad position to do it in the first place. I can't believe that you can't see how that would make him look really bad.

I see what you're saying, even if I don't entirely agree. Though I don't entirely disagree either. It sounds like you're saying when the PU really didn't want to ask or feel it was necessary but did it by request. If he really doesn't want to come to you, he should just wear it and say no. But maybe he's just looking for backup, I dunno.Unless I was positive that he was just mollifying some whiners, I'd come back with my honest answer as to swing or not.

That's exactly what I was saying. I used to never go for help on a RH batter when my BU was in "C". I would just tell the catcher, "he's not in a position to make that call". Our UIC said that it's better to just pacify the catcher and go to your partner whenever they ask you to. So in cases where it's clear that they are going to me somewhat reluctantly, I'm going to consider the circumstances somewhat when deciding whether to overrule them.

So you might be changing the outcome of the game by not giving a strike when asked for by appeal?

[umpire_scott]

As I said earlier I would consider the circumstances.

[SoCal Lurker]

Rule 9.02© Comment: A manager is permitted to ask the umpires for an explanation of the

play and how the umpires have exercised their discretion to eliminate the results and consequences of

the earlier call that the umpires are reversing. Once the umpires explain the result of the play,

however, no one is permitted to argue that the umpires should have exercised their discretion in a

different manner.

The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing

when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may

not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help.

Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may

not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home

plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call

the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

[UmpTTS43]

As I said earlier I would consider the circumstances.

These are the only circumstances you should consider: Is it a valid appeal, and if so, do you judge the batter made an attempt.

It's really not that difficult. If they ask, go. If the batter has an opportunity to become a runner, go without them asking.

[umpire_scott]

As I said earlier I would consider the circumstances.

These are the only circumstances you should consider: Is it a valid appeal, and if so, do you judge the batter made an attempt.

It's really not that difficult. If they ask, go. If the batter has an opportunity to become a runner, go without them asking.

Who are you telling to "go". If who asks?

[zm1283]

I only give the appeal on check swing on RHBs, and then only when my partner is in "A"

Or on LHB, and then only in 3 man when bU is in "D"

We rarely work 3 man, so LHB check swings are non-existent.

Like I've told you before, this is not how it is done at higher levels and it is wrong. Umpires working NCAA or MiLB games in 2-man get check swings from any position, so why is it not good enough for you?

New umpires: The quoted above is not how it is done at clinics.

[zm1283]

As I said earlier I would consider the circumstances.

These are the only circumstances you should consider: Is it a valid appeal, and if so, do you judge the batter made an attempt.

It's really not that difficult. If they ask, go. If the batter has an opportunity to become a runner, go without them asking.

Who are you telling to "go". If who asks?

"Go" as in go to your partner for the check swing appeal. If the defensive team asks or if the batter could become a runner, go to him on your own.

You really are doing this wrong, and digging your heels in just makes you look worse. The PU CANNOT go to the BU after he calls a swinging strike and appeal. You said that you will rarely do it, but you fail to realize that you CAN'T do it.

"No, he didn't go", is the mechanic, just like Matt told you earlier. When the defensive team asks, you still have to go to your partner and he still should give you whatever he has.

I don't understand why some people on here pussyfoot around check swings. I have NEVER felt embarrassed or thrown under the bus when a partner on the bases gets a strike on a check swing. The worst thing that could happen is another strike, and that just means you're closer to drinking beer.

[zm1283]

Scott, what area of Missouri are you in?