Coach Makes Call

[calablue]

Last night I was BU in a 13/15 yr old game ( OBR ). PU only has 3 games under his belt behind the plate, but this is fall ball and we're trying to get him some experience. A situation arose that I would like to hear some input on as to how to handle it in the future. Bases loaded, 1 out, batter hits a blooper that is going to fall in no-mans land between 1B and 2B just shy of the infield grass line. F3,F4, and F6 are all playing deep and there is no way that F1 is going to make this catch. There is no way I'm calling IFR on this hit, but then I here my partner say it. He said "infield fly rule" (batter is out was not added) nowhere near loud enough, but I did hear him say it. No sooner are the words out of his mouth the DC hollers... IFR Batter Out !! There was no way that this coach had time to hear my partner call the IFR and digest what he had heard before he made the call himself. I realize that he actually helped the offense by calling it so loudly that they should have known better than leave their bases ( turns out this wasn't the case, but that is irrelevant here ). What I want to get some input on is how to handle this situation if neither the PU or BU had actually made the IFR call. If this had actually been the case then he would have put all the base runners at risk with his call. If this were the case, would you call time immediately, put the batter on 1B and advance all the other runners 1 base due to verbal obstruction ? Or would you let the play continue and take action after it is over ( if any action is required )? And what do you do with this coach? Do you send him packing ?

[mstaylor]

He is getting a serious talking to minimum. I am negating any outs they make but allowing any advances they make. He is going to know that certains things are reserved for the umpires and that is one.

Now, why wouldn't you have called IFF yourself? I find a ball dropping between first and second unlikely not to be an IFF. Unless something is weird with the wind, it's most likely going to be an out.

[jjb]

I think that, as soon as your partner muttered IFF, he negated any discussion with the DC. At that point, the IFF was called, and he was just telling his fielders the situation.

Had your partner not called, there would have been some sincere conversation with the DC.

[Rich Ives]

No sooner are the words out of his mouth the DC hollers... IFR Batter Out !! There was no way that this coach had time to hear my partner call the IFR and digest what he had heard before he made the call himself.

Au Contraire.

Any coach worth his salt is waiting to hear the call and ready to echo it.

[jnazz]

As the more senior umpire, as soon as you heard your partner say IFF, you've gotta echo that call and echo it LOUD. If you don't you're looking for trouble because I'm sure someone besides you heard the PU utter IFF. Now, I'm sure you will probably eat alot of $#!t after making the call (since almost everyone would've heard you and not your meek PU's call) but as the senior umpire on the crew you need to handle this situation and then talk to your partner after the game. He will see how you handled the situation and realize it was his mistake but you covered for him because you are a team. You need to let him know that eventhough it wasn't an IFF, you echoed the call immediatly and you have to live with the outcome. Then you need to go over the aspects of the IFF rule, mechanics of calling it, etc.

Now the coach needs to, at minimum, get a stern talking to. You need to let him know that you'll umpire and he'll coach. Penalty on this would depend on the level.

[yawetag]

Now the coach needs to, at minimum, get a stern talking to. You need to let him know that you'll umpire and he'll coach. Penalty on this would depend on the level.

So, what penalties are you giving for the different levels?

[jnazz]

So, what penalties are you giving for the different levels?

Older kids (legion) and men should know what's going on. So I have no penalty -- just a chat with DC and maybe ej. At these levels the players tend to work these situations out. If this happened in a younger age group (ie. 13-15 yr olds and younger) I have no problem calling int on the DC, advancing the runners and giving BR first.

[Mr Umpire]

Older kids (legion) and men should know what's going on. So I have no penalty -- just a chat with DC and maybe ej. At these levels the players tend to work these situations out. If this happened in a younger age group (ie. 13-15 yr olds and younger) I have no problem calling int on the DC, advancing the runners and giving BR first.

INT on the coach? Advancing runners and giving BR 1B? Why? He was out when IFR was called. And, in OBR, the situation dictates IFR, not the call. In the OP, no matter what, the coach didn't cause anything. Even if it wasn't called, the coach did the umpires a favor b/c they would have to fix their own mistake of not calling it if necessary.

And, the penalty should be no different. The penalty is to negate what the coach caused if necessary and talk to him about not doing it again. EJ the next time. Regardless the age.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[JamesC]

I may be wrong, but I think he's saying he would assess those penalties had neither umpire deemed it an IFF and just the coach spoke out, causing the catastrophe! Also, I'm guessing this wasn't a towering fly ball. We've all had these! A quick-sinking bloopers hit toward the 4 hole, and maybe front of dirt. As OP said, the infielders were playing deep. I've definitely had my share of no calls in this situation. That's a whole other discussion in itself though!

[jnazz]

INT on the coach? Advancing runners and giving BR 1B? Why? He was out when IFR was called. And, in OBR, the situation dictates IFR, not the call. In the OP, no matter what, the coach didn't cause anything. Even if it wasn't called, the coach did the umpires a favor b/c they would have to fix their own mistake of not calling it if necessary.

And, the penalty should be no different. The penalty is to negate what the coach caused if necessary and talk to him about not doing it again. EJ the next time. Regardless the age.

The original post asked what we'd do had neither umpire called the IFF.

[Mr Umpire]

The original post asked what we'd do had neither umpire called the IFF.

And, I will repeat what I said. Even if the umpires don't call it, if the ball meets the criteria, it is still an IFR in OBR. So, it still doesn't matter if they called it or not. The play is the same. What the coach did is beside the point.

Only difference now is the umpires have to clean up their mess.

If the ball doesn't meet the criteria, then the umpires nullify what may have been caused by the coach. Then, talk to the coach. If his call has no bearing on the results, then only talk to him and let the play stand. Just like if he yells "Balk". If he causes it, then nullify. If he doesn't, let the play happen and talk to him about it.

Irregardless of age, the penalty is the same.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[jnazz]

Fair enough. But what I'm picturing is the coach popping out of the dugout and yelling, "INFIELD FLY BATTER'S OUT" and all the 13 yr olds stopping play. And I do believe the original post said it wasn't an IFF. Of course it's a HTBT situation to determine if it was in fact an IFF.

[UmpTTS43]

And, I will repeat what I said. Even if the umpires don't call it, if the ball meets the criteria, it is still an IFR in OBR. So, it still doesn't matter if they called it or not.

In OBR, if the IFF is not called, it is not in effect. Plus, umpires are not allowed to go back and retroactively enforce it. FED allows corrections.

[mstaylor]

Actually LL allows the correction also. I would fix it at any youth level.

[UmpTTS43]

Actually LL allows the correction also. I would fix it at any youth level.

Agreed. I would fix where possible, regardless of rule set. Just TTS being TTS on the "rule".

[calablue]

He is getting a serious talking to minimum. I am negating any outs they make but allowing any advances they make. He is going to know that certains things are reserved for the umpires and that is one.

Now, why wouldn't you have called IFF yourself? I find a ball dropping between first and second unlikely not to be an IFF. Unless something is weird with the wind, it's most likely going to be an out.

Negating outs and allowing the advances is what I would have done. I spoke to the coach quietly during a time out immediately following the play and informed him that it was our call not his and not to do it again.

[calablue]

He is getting a serious talking to minimum. I am negating any outs they make but allowing any advances they make. He is going to know that certains things are reserved for the umpires and that is one.

Now, why wouldn't you have called IFF yourself? I find a ball dropping between first and second unlikely not to be an IFF. Unless something is weird with the wind, it's most likely going to be an out.

I didn't call the IFF because it was not an IFR situation in my opinion. It was a little blooper that NO ONE was going to catch unless they were layed out and managed a spectacular play.

[calablue]

I think that, as soon as your partner muttered IFF, he negated any discussion with the DC. At that point, the IFF was called, and he was just telling his fielders the situation.

Had your partner not called, there would have been some sincere conversation with the DC.

I agree, but what I asked was if neither ump had called the IFR. And what I mean is that neither ump considered it to be an IFR situation.

[calablue]

Au Contraire.

Any coach worth his salt is waiting to hear the call and ready to echo it.

HTBT Rich...there was no way he could have echoed as fast as he did.

[calablue]

I may be wrong, but I think he's saying he would assess those penalties had neither umpire deemed it an IFF and just the coach spoke out, causing the catastrophe! Also, I'm guessing this wasn't a towering fly ball. We've all had these! A quick-sinking bloopers hit toward the 4 hole, and maybe front of dirt. As OP said, the infielders were playing deep. I've definitely had my share of no calls in this situation. That's a whole other discussion in itself though!

That is exactly the type hit it was.

[calablue]

The original post asked what we'd do had neither umpire called the IFF.

And what I meant by that was that neither ump considered this to be an IFR situation and acted accordingly

[calablue]

And, I will repeat what I said. Even if the umpires don't call it, if the ball meets the criteria, it is still an IFR in OBR. So, it still doesn't matter if they called it or not. The play is the same. What the coach did is beside the point.

Only difference now is the umpires have to clean up their mess.

If the ball doesn't meet the criteria, then the umpires nullify what may have been caused by the coach. Then, talk to the coach. If his call has no bearing on the results, then only talk to him and let the play stand. Just like if he yells "Balk". If he causes it, then nullify. If he doesn't, let the play happen and talk to him about it.

Irregardless of age, the penalty is the same.

"If the ball doesn't meet the criteria, then the umpires nullify what may have been caused by the coach. Then, talk to the coach. If his call has no bearing on the results, then only talk to him and let the play stand. Just like if he yells "Balk". If he causes it, then nullify. If he doesn't, let the play happen and talk to him about it."

Thank you for this statement...this was the situation I was asking about. If the ball didn't meet the criteria and neither umpire made the IFR call.And this was the type answer I was looking for.

Edited November 22, 2010 by calablue

[Mr Umpire]

And, I will repeat what I said. Even if the umpires don't call it, if the ball meets the criteria, it is still an IFR in OBR. So, it still doesn't matter if they called it or not. The play is the same. What the coach did is beside the point.

Only difference now is the umpires have to clean up their mess.

If the ball doesn't meet the criteria, then the umpires nullify what may have been caused by the coach. Then, talk to the coach. If his call has no bearing on the results, then only talk to him and let the play stand. Just like if he yells "Balk". If he causes it, then nullify. If he doesn't, let the play happen and talk to him about it.

Irregardless of age, the penalty is the same.

The above highlighted quote is from a previous post in this thread. I was remembering another thread on this topic and remembered it incorrectly. I searched for that thread and found I was wrong.

So, as UmpTTS pointed out, in OBR, if the umpires don't call it, then it is not an IFR. However, going back and fixing it is a little unclear since PBUC has in their book about conferencing on things like this. Me personally, may conference to make things clear of what happened but not to change the outcome unless the coach interfered somehow.

In FED, it appears to be so and that may have been what I was remembering.

[PeteBooth]

There is no way I'm calling IFR on this hit, but then I here my partner say it. He said "infield fly rule" (batter is out was not added) nowhere near loud enough, but I did hear him say it.

The aforementioned is a akin to an umpire calling a ball FOUL. We all echo the foul call. When your partner called IFR then you echo the call.

After the game you can discuss this play.

What I want to get some input on is how to handle this situation when the IFR is NOT called by either the PU or BU. If this were the case, would you call time immediately, put the batter on 1B and advance all the other runners 1 base due to verbal obstruction ? Or would you let the play continue and take action after it is over ( if any action is required )? And what do you do with this coach? Do you send him packing ?

First things First.

You said you were playing by OBR rules. In OBR there is no such animal as verbal OBS. FED has both verbal OBS and Verbal Int.

You do NOT call time immediately. These are 13-15's so IMO at this age level (15 is JV level) they should KNOW to ignore the actions of the "other" coach. To me it's akin to the 1B coach giving a safe sign on a banger at first. The coaches safe signal means NOTHING. It's what the umpire says.

IMO, the main problem in this OP is YOUR silence. Your partner called the IF and you said NOTHING. Perhaps the DC while not actually hearing the PU say IF saw the signal, hence he instructed his defense.

If in fact neither you or your partner called it then after the play you speak to the coach.

Remember the IF is to protect the offense and generally speaking when you have a pop-up ANYWHERE in the infield it's best to call the IF.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

If the ball doesn't meet the criteria, then the umpires nullify what may have been caused by the coach.

This is OBR so what rule support do you have for nullifying what MAY have been caused by the coach?

In OBR there is so Verbal OBS or verbal Interference. (reference JR)

In OBR the play STANDS.

Remember the AROD play against the Blue Jays?

In an OBR based game whatever happens happens. Obviously you speak to the coach but there is no rule support to UNDO what happened.

In a FED game you have rule support.

Pete Booth