Not so classic hit by batted ball

[bam]

OBR. R3 suicide squeeze. Batter bunts ball straight up into air in front of plate, runner sildes into plate as ball hits and bounces backwards into sliding runner in fair territory. Yikes.

Something I've never seen before.

[johnnyg08]

What was your call?

That's crazy.

[bam]

I was BU in C. Plate umpire didn't make a call and came to me. I had R3 out, award BR first. What the heck else can you have? OM wasn't happy, almost had to toss AC. DM thought it was a fantastic call.

[johnnyg08]

PU didn't know what to do. Bummer. Sounds like you got it right though.

I agree with you what else can you have if he didn't score before he was hit with a batted ball.

[bam]

he DID score before he was hit. But he still interfered with the catcher's attemt to field the ball. I can't find a rule reference that addresses the situation.

[scrounge]

he DID score before he was hit. But he still interfered with the catcher's attemt to field the ball. I can't find a rule reference that addresses the situation.

wow, that's a crazy situation, I don't envy you guys having to decide in the heat of the moment. But since R3 did already score, is he then still a runner? Seems like it would be like an on-deck hitter interfering. Perhaps the run should have counted, but the batter called out due to interference by another player who wasn't a runner (since he already scored). I dunno, no one's gonna like it no matter what.

[bam]

Fortunately the offense was ahead by 6, or else i really was going to have to toss someone.

Plus I'm really interested if it mekes a diffrence OBR/FED. I'm digging into the books as we speak.

[johnnyg08]

Gosh, you might have a "live ball" play it unless R3 did something intentional.

That adds a whole other wrinkle. Heck you can't expect R3 to disappear!

Tough, tough call.

[bam]

Gosh, you might have a "live ball" play it unless R3 did something intentional.

That adds a whole other wrinkle. Heck you can't expect R3 to disappear!

Tough, tough call.

I know - but if a runner leading off first gets drilled by a line drive, what do you have? That's easy, right? The difference here is that he already scored, but I honestly can't see the difference.

[johnnyg08]

Big difference though in the eyes of the rules.

[bam]

Still haven't found a rule reference for this one. Got one for me?

[Tyennie]

Take a look at the BRD if you have one - pages 316 - 317, it is much to wordy to type it all here.

[bam]

Take a look at the BRD if you have one - pages 316 - 317, it is much to wordy to type it all here.

don'h have one. can i get the short version?

[johnnyg08]

Stand by. I'll post it. The pages cited by Tyennie are incorrect. Those pages refer to suspensions.

[johnnyg08]

I'm paging through the BRD and I'm not seeing anything about that type of play. I can tell you that if he already scored, he is no longer a runner. He's simply an offensive teammate.

BRD doesn't list any case plays that I could find of this being illegal. So remember this guideline. If the rulebook doesn't list something as illegal, then it is legal.

If I had to guess....this would be a "live ball, keep playing" unless the runner, now offensive teammate does something intentional to prevent F2 or whatever defensive player from making a play. I will keep looking, I hope you're doing the same.

[bam]

I've got a call into MLB. Really.

[bam]

Got a call back - I'm not mentioning any names, and he is going to check with an MLB umpire working a game today. His take was same as mine - apply same penalty as runner hit by batted ball, regardless of runners' status (scored/not yet scored). I will let you know what the MLB umpire has to say.

[Tyennie]

Stand by. I'll post it. The pages cited by Tyennie are incorrect. Those pages refer to suspensions.

Well i beg to differ with you as far as being the incorrect cited pages, as the 2011 BRD I have has the following topic: page 316

478: Scoring:Runs: Scoring: Nullified. and then on page 317 the following play given:

Play 246-478: R2, R3. B1 lays down a suicide squeeze bunt. R3 touches the plate but then slides into the untouched batted ball, which is in fair territory. Ruling: In FED, R3 scores but has interfered, so B1 is out; R2 returns to 2B unless he reached 3B prior to R3's interference. In NCAA and OBR, R3 is out because he has been hit by a batted ball before it passed and infielder. R2 returns, and B1 is awarded first.

[johnnyg08]

I looked in the 2012 version I didn't know you were using the 2011 BRD. Hope that clears things up...and thanks for posting that...I didn't think to look in that section, I was looking in the Interference section.

[johnnyg08]

From 2012 BRD p. 303

480 SCORING: RUNS: SCORE: NULLIFIED k FED: Point (almost) not covered.

OFF INTERP 390-480: RUMBLE: Once a runner has legally scored a run, he cannot nullify the score by any legal action, such as retreating to third in the belief he had missed the base or left too soon. (News #31, 4/84) a

EXCEPT: A runner who has scored on a force play but is guilty of interference with a fielder nullifies his run. (2.32.2c; 8.4.2w)

502. ALSO: OFF INTERP 391-480: RUMBLE: A runner who has scored but is guilty of INTERFERENCE WITH A BATTED BALL keeps his run but causes a teammate to be out. (News #8, 3/92) (See § 329 W1162. Contrast OBR OFF INTERP 392 [this section].) a

NCAA: A runner cannot nullify a legally scored run. (5-6c AR 1) EXCEPT: Same as FED: A runner who scores on a force play but interferes is out and his run is canceled. (5-6c AR 1 Ex)

OBR: A runner cannot nullify a legally scored run. (5.06 CMT)

EXCEPT: OFF INTERP 392-480: DEARY: The umpire will cancel a legally scored run if the runner who has scored is guilty of interference with a fair batted ball after crossing the plate. (letter to TH, 10/14/87) (Contrast FED OFF INTERP 391 [this section].)

Play 246-480: R2, R3. B1 lays down a suicide-squeeze bunt. R3 touches the plate but then slides into the untouched batted ball, which is in fair territory. Ruling: In FED, R3 scores but has interfered, so B1 is out; R2 returns to second unless he reached third prior to R3’s interference. In NCAA / OBR, R3 is out because he has been hit by a batted ball before it passed an infielder. R2 returns, and B1 is awarded first. (See § 461 W1163.)

Note 453: FED OFF INTERPs 390 and 391 [this section] are philosophically consistent. On the other hand, OBR OFF INTERP 392 above is easily explained: 7.08f (runner interference) supersedes 5.06 CMT (runner nullifies score). After all, the reason for 5.06 CMT is to ensure that a DELIBERATE act by a runner – heading back around the bases, for example – cannot cancel his legally scored run.

[Tyennie]

Yup that is verbatim what my book says. interesting to note that we lost 13 pages of material between last yrs edition and this yrs edition.

[johnnyg08]

Funny how that happens!

[bam]

FWIW, Director of MLB umpires agrees with the OBR ruling, which is not to say MLB umpires get 3rd world calls right very often, although I'm not sure how much credence MLB places in the BRD. MLB won't recognize the J/R interpretations, from what I'm told.

[johnnyg08]

MLB recognizes their own interpretations (which, a lot of times are very similar to PBUC)

J/R...even BRD doesn't use J/R anymore. Carl uses Wendelstedt.

[dumbdumb]

What is FED with 2 outs on this play? If B1 is the 3rd out due to the interference by R3, what happens since he has not legally reached 1B? Does the run score?