Dropped 3rd

[amarillo]

Forgive me if this has been asked and answered before. Here it is r3 and r2 with two outs. Catcher drops called strike 3 and r3 comes home and beats the tag meanwhile batter is just standing there... pitcher sees r2 round third to far and throws down and they get the tag. Now here are my questions. Batter never made an attempt to go to first not even a step so does out for abondoning constitute a force?? If so then the run doesn't score correct? If not than the play at third would have been out number 3 and the run counts?? I found out from my partner that the batter took a backward step out of the box and turned and asked Am I out? Also the defensive team never tagged the batter nor threw the ball to first base. Thanks for the advice

[JaxRolo]

turned and asked Am I out?

How did your partner answer?

[JaxRolo]

Forgive me if this has been asked and answered before. Here it is r3 and r2 with two outs. Catcher drops called strike 3 and r3 comes home and beats the tag meanwhile batter is just standing there... pitcher sees r2 round third to far and throws down and they get the tag. Now here are my questions. Batter never made an attempt to go to first not even a step so does out for abondoning constitute a force?? If so then the run doesn't score correct? If not than the play at third would have been out number 3 and the run counts?? I found out from my partner that the batter took a backward step out of the box and turned and asked Am I out? Also the defensive team never tagged the batter nor threw the ball to first base. Thanks for the advice

Tough one!

I believe Babe Ruth States that the if the Batter leaves the circled area then they are out.

SO, I could be completely wrong on this but I would say that even with everything else that went on that at some point he did leave the circled area (even if it was after he Defensive Team left the field) then that was automatically out number 3. NO run.

Don't flame me to bad on this guys but what do you think?

[jjb]

I think that, eventually, you're going to call the BR out, so the run doesn't score.

[amarillo]

My partner answered yes you are out. I didn't know that so when the play at third happened I banged the kid out. I think the play at third is what lead to the mass confusion

[amarillo]

Jax if he didn't leave the circle until after the out at third then the run should count because the out at third took place before the kid abandoned his attempt yes or no??

[JaxRolo]

Jax if he didn't leave the circle until after the out at third then the run should count because the out at third took place before the kid abandoned his attempt yes or no??

I tend to disagree since the out at first is kinda of a Force out nullifying the run.

[amarillo]

Kinda a force or a force? and JJB you cannot assume an out just like you cannot assume the double play

[JaxRolo]

Kinda a force or a force? and JJB you cannot assume an out just like you cannot assume the double play

I think it is no different than a hit ground ball to infield and throw out at 1b. No run would score.

In this case there is no need to take into account everything else that happened before the force out.

[buddywilshire]

Looks like you got a wreck. If he stepped out of the back of box, yeah he is out. That would have been your way out. If he didn't move, I would have counted the run and got my third out at third base. Your PU didn't do you any favors but it looks like it ended up right.

[JaxRolo]

Looks like you got a wreck. If he stepped out of the back of box, yeah he is out. That would have been your way out. If he didn't move, I would have counted the run and got my third out at third base. Your PU didn't do you any favors but it looks like it ended up right.

Stepping out of the box is not stepping out of the circle as per OBR/Babe Ruth.

[Rich Ives]

PLEASE - you can't abandon until after you've touched first.

THIS IS NOT HARD!

On the D3K rule, you are out either A) after leaving the dirt circle without attempting to go to 1B or Entering DBT. Which one depends on the rules you are using.

If the batter-runner is out for either of those reasons - or for "normal" reasons, then no run can score because the third out was made by the B-R before he touchee first base.

IF the third out was recorded elsewhere then the defense has to appeal the infraction to get the advantageous fourth out. The best move here would just be to throw to 1B and appeal the failure to go to 1B.

[th3]

if the bases were loaded, the cathcer can just pick up the ball and step on the plate..force out right? so im going with that the play at 3rd is a force out...I believe in FED and certaonly in asa softball, they have not abandoned until they enter the dugout or team area...so i think you've either got a force or strikeout and run does not score

[Umpire in Chief]

Agree with Rich. You have to call the outs as presented to you. Until appealed R3's run counts.

[Mr Umpire]

if the bases were loaded, the cathcer can just pick up the ball and step on the plate..force out right? so im going with that the play at 3rd is a force out...I believe in FED and certaonly in asa softball, they have not abandoned until they enter the dugout or team area...so i think you've either got a force or strikeout and run does not score

While this would be true if bases were loaded, there was only R3 and R2 in the OP.

[UmpJM]

Agree with Rich. You have to call the outs as presented to you. Until appealed R3's run counts.

Guys,

You are making this WAY too complicated.

Take the identical situation (R3 & R2, 2 outs). Instead of the batter becoming a runner on an U3K, he hits a grounder to F6. The F6 throws out the R2 at 3B after the R3 has scored. The BR, seeing the 3rd out made, aborts his attempt to reach 1B.

The run scores and the half inning is over. There is no possibility of an "advantageous apparent 4th out" because no appealable baserunning infraction occurred during the play.

There is NO DIFFERENCE in the proper ruling in the sitch presented in the initial post (other than the bonehead PU informing the BR he was out when he wasn't).

The run scores and the defense has no opportunity to negate the run.

As amarillo said, if the 3rd out occurs before the batter has left the dirt circle NOT attempting to reach 1B (OBR & NCAA) or entering DBT (FED), the run scores. End of story.

JM

[Rich Ives]

Guys,

You are making this WAY too complicated.

Take the identical situation (R3 & R2, 2 outs). Instead of the batter becoming a runner on an U3K, he hits a grounder to F6. The F6 throws out the R2 at 3B after the R3 has scored. The BR, seeing the 3rd out made, aborts his attempt to reach 1B.

The run scores and the half inning is over. There is no possibility of an "advantageous apparent 4th out" because no appealable baserunning infraction occurred during the play.

There is NO DIFFERENCE in the proper ruling in the sitch presented in the initial post (other than the bonehead PU informing the BR he was out when he wasn't).

The run scores and the defense has no opportunity to negate the run.

As amarillo said, if the 3rd out occurs before the batter has left the dirt circle NOT attempting to reach 1B (OBR & NCAA) or entering DBT (FED), the run scores. End of story.

JM

Get out your 2009 BRD.

Read item 3.

All three authorities (PBUC, NCAA, FED) ruled that you CAN appeal an advantageous fourth out on a B-R who did not touch first.

[MPLSMatt]

I'm gonna assume Rich is right for the purpose of my question, so what do you do when a coach wants to know if the run scores and his whole team has not left the field? You say, "run scores - the 3rd out was not a force," correct? Anything more is leading the team to appeal at first. Something tells me D coach isn't going to like this explanation but if you say "BR was never put out," you are tipping the coach to the need for an appeal (again, assuming a Defensive player remains on the field).

[Umpire in Chief]

I'm gonna assume Rich is right for the purpose of my question, so what do you do when a coach wants to know if the run scores and his whole team has not left the field? You say, "run scores - the 3rd out was not a force," correct? Anything more is leading the team to appeal at first. Something tells me D coach isn't going to like this explanation but if you say "BR was never put out," you are tipping the coach to the need for an appeal (again, assuming a Defensive player remains on the field).

As Hunter Wendelstedt said in my interview with him when speaking about appeals, "However, that doesn’t mean that a reasonable question can’t be given a reasonable answer. And remember, some of their questions won’t have that question mark at the end of it."

[JaxRolo]

It appears that everyone has a different opinion/interpretation on this.

Seems like that most agree that Run does NOT score whether its an appeal, Abandonment, third or fourth out or whatever.

[Rich Ives]

It appears that everyone has a different opinion/interpretation on this.

Seems like that most agree that Run does NOT score whether its an appeal, Abandonment, third or fourth out or whatever.

Based on what rule?

To disallow the run, the batter-runner would have to be the third out before touching first. Not the third out? Run counts. Want to get a fourth out to swap for the current third out? Need to appeal.

Read the abandonment rule.

[UmpJM]

Get out your 2009 BRD.

Read item 3.

All three authorities (PBUC, NCAA, FED) ruled that you CAN appeal an advantageous fourth out on a B-R who did not touch first.

Rich,

I stand corrected.

FWIW, the J/R says the same thing as the Official Interps cited in the BRD.

I've never seen this in my life and expect I never will - but, you never know.

JM

[JaxRolo]

Rich,

I also stand corrected.

Went back and re-read the posts and I agree most say run scores. And after reading the rule i agree.

Humbly,

Jaxrolo

[catoblue]

So... I think the final consensus, backed up by the interpretation manuals, is this...

No appeal, run scores

Appeal at 1st, run does not score

an example of the elusive, but real, "adventagious fourth out".

[amarillo]

I will pass this along