Verbalizing <acronym title='Dropped third strike'>D3K</acronym>

[johnnyg08]

Verbalizing D3K is a solution in search of a problem.

jjskitours: if you want to say "BOTG" go for it if it works for you.

We're making it a bigger deal than it needs to be.

Do what your evaluator tells you to do or do what works for you.

[Rich Ives]

After the Eddings fiasco Evans said to verbalize it because the only two people who really need to know have their backs to you.

Seems the pros took his advice.

Maybe all should.

[johnnyg08]

Do what works for you. Verbalizing got me in trouble twice so I will verbalize no longer until the reasons arise that I mentioned earlier. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, I think there are good reasons on each side of the debate.

Rules have also changed since the Eddings Sitch too. If the hitter doesn't immediately run to 1b, he's out. More than just mechanics have changed Rich.

[Rich Ives]

Rules have also changed since the Eddings Sitch too. If the hitter doesn't immediately run to 1b, he's out. More than just mechanics have changed Rich.

No.

If he leaves the dirt circle without trying for first he's out. There's no "immediate" to it. He can stand there and watch F2 chase the ball all day and then run to 1B as long as he deosn't leave the dirt first.

[johnnyg08]

Rules have also changed since the Eddings Sitch too. If the hitter doesn't immediately run to 1b, he's out. More than just mechanics have changed Rich.

No.

If he leaves the dirt circle without trying for first he's out. There's no "immediate" to it. He can stand there and watch F2 chase the ball all day and then run to 1B as long as he deosn't leave the dirt first.

I'll look for the interp...I know what's in the rule book. (6.09b comment)

[johnnyg08]

He can stand there and watch F2 chase the ball all day and then run to 1B as long as he deosn't leave the dirt first.

You're changing the situation.

[sdix00]

Rules have also changed since the Eddings Sitch too. If the hitter doesn't immediately run to 1b, he's out. More than just mechanics have changed Rich.

No.

If he leaves the dirt circle without trying for first he's out. There's no "immediate" to it. He can stand there and watch F2 chase the ball all day and then run to 1B as long as he deosn't leave the dirt first.

I'll look for the interp...I know what's in the rule book. (6.09b comment)

MLBUM

32. Interpretation of Rule 6.09( b ): Abandoning Base Paths

Under the Comment to Official Baseball Rule 6.09( b ), a batter

who strikes out on a third strike not caught is treated differently than

the above two plays relating to abandoning the base paths:

A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not

caught, and who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be

declared out once the batter leaves the dirt circle surrounding home

plate.

The above ruling shall also apply to a batter who strikes out on

third strike not caught and who makes no effort to advance to first

base within, in the umpire's judgment, a reasonable amount of time.

For example, a batter who "lingers" at home plate, removing a shin

guard, and then takes off for first base shall also be declared out.

Due to the variation in size and shape of dirt circles surrounding

home plate in different ballparks, in the umpire's judgment when the

batter-runner has shown no effort to advance to first base on a third

strike not caught such batter may be declared out. In any case, should

the batter leave the dirt circle surrounding home plate before attempt-ing to advance to first base, the batter shall be declared out.

[johnnyg08]

32. Interpretation of Rule 6.09( b ): Abandoning Base Paths

Under the Comment to Official Baseball Rule 6.09( b ), a batter

who strikes out on a third strike not caught is treated differently than

the above two plays relating to abandoning the base paths:

A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not

caught, and who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be

declared out once the batter leaves the dirt circle surrounding home

plate.

The above ruling shall also apply to a batter who strikes out on

third strike not caught and who makes no effort to advance to first

base within, in the umpire's judgment, a reasonable amount of time.

For example, a batter who "lingers" at home plate, removing a shin

guard, and then takes off for first base shall also be declared out.

Due to the variation in size and shape of dirt circles surrounding

home plate in different ballparks, in the umpire's judgment when the

batter-runner has shown no effort to advance to first base on a third

strike not caught such batter may be declared out. In any case, should

the batter leave the dirt circle surrounding home plate before attempt-ing to advance to first base, the batter shall be declared out.

I owe you one Stephen. Huge pick up! I KNEW I read it somewhere and I looked and looked last night and couldn't find it but forgot it was under abandonment. Thank you!!!!

[sdix00]

32. Interpretation of Rule 6.09( b ): Abandoning Base Paths

Under the Comment to Official Baseball Rule 6.09( b ), a batter

who strikes out on a third strike not caught is treated differently than

the above two plays relating to abandoning the base paths:

A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not

caught, and who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be

declared out once the batter leaves the dirt circle surrounding home

plate.

The above ruling shall also apply to a batter who strikes out on

third strike not caught and who makes no effort to advance to first

base within, in the umpire's judgment, a reasonable amount of time.

For example, a batter who "lingers" at home plate, removing a shin

guard, and then takes off for first base shall also be declared out.

Due to the variation in size and shape of dirt circles surrounding

home plate in different ballparks, in the umpire's judgment when the

batter-runner has shown no effort to advance to first base on a third

strike not caught such batter may be declared out. In any case, should

the batter leave the dirt circle surrounding home plate before attempt-ing to advance to first base, the batter shall be declared out.

I owe you one Stephen. Huge pick up! I KNEW I read it somewhere and I looked and looked last night and couldn't find it but forgot it was under abandonment. Thank you!!!!

Go figure that they would put this under abandonment. A daddy coach could have found it, but not an umpire.

It almost requires that we illegally scan the book so we can find anything. . . Almost.

[johnnyg08]

The reason I remembered it was an interp is b/c I remember the word "linger"

To be honest, I came into this thread this afternoon to tell Rich that I couldn't find the interp, then I saw your post and it made my day.

[Mr Umpire]

For the original thread, I verbalize "No catch". Batter and F2 hear it and know what to do. Hasn't been a problem yet. The one's who need to know have their back to the call, as Rich pointed out. How do they know you signaled "safe"? Now, they have to take the time to look, especially the batter. If the ball skips into F2's glove and no one can tell from the dugout, it takes time to look at the umpire and see what he is calling when they can hear what he is calling a whole lot faster.

That is why I verbalize and will continue to regardless of what some feel like arguing for/against. As johnny said, until my assignor has a problem with it, I don't have a problem with how I handle the situation.

[johnnyg08]

Not true. I tell my F2's that if they don't hear me call them out on the ones where they could run, then they assume that they have to tag the batter/runner or throw to F2.

Nobody has to look anywhere if it's done correctly.

[Rich Ives]

Not true. I tell my F2's that if they don't hear me call them out on the ones where they could run, then they assume that they have to tag the batter/runner or throw to F2.

Nobody has to look anywhere if it's done correctly.

And what do you tell the batters to get them on a even footing? You do it for each batter each time - right?

Just verbalize the "no catch" and it solves all the problems.

[johnnyg08]

Sometimes it is their job to know the situation as well. In fact, I've considered getting rid of that pregame discussion with the F2's as well. I'm not responsible for coaching the players...their coach is responsible for teaching F2 and hitters the scenarios. When in doubt run, when in doubt tag or throw to F3. Pretty simple. I'm done verbalizing since I had two batter/runners stop running on me when they heard "catch" instead of the "no" piece several years ago...and yes, I used the "correct" emphasis on "no" and "catch"

Since then, zero issues. No verbalize for me.

[BT_Blue]

I have been taught to give your swinging strike mechanic (in my case I point) then come up with a "safe" sign and then I have started saying "play on. play on" loud enough for F2 and BR to hear.

[JaxRolo]

I have been taught to give your swinging strike mechanic (in my case I point) then come up with a "safe" sign and then I have started saying "play on. play on" loud enough for <acronym title='Catcher'>F2</acronym> and <acronym title='Batter-runner'>BR </acronym>to hear.

I am not a fan of saying Play-on. To me that coaching. Just giving the safe signal will prompt everyone else to start yelling Run

[Nate]

I say "No Catch" and signal with a safe mechanic.

[UmpJM]

Sometimes it is their job to know the situation as well. In fact, I've considered getting rid of that pregame discussion with the F2's as well. I'm not responsible for coaching the players...their coach is responsible for teaching F2 and hitters the scenarios. ...

johnny,

Of course they're responsible for knowing the situation!

As the umpire, you are responsible for judging whether or not the catcher caught the ball in flight and letting everybody know what you judged. On a "close" one, there's no way for anyone to know what you judged if you don't tell them. Tell them.

It's what taught at ALL levels in credible umpire instruction these days (ever since the Eddings ALCS fiasco). Give them a physical and a verbal. It's not coaching, it's umpiring.

JM

[scrounge]

Doug Eddings is a fine American and made an excellent call with perfectly acceptable mechanics.

.

.

.

.

.

.

I will admit that there is a small, barely perceptible chance that I may, possibly be a tad biased on that, of course.

[johnnyg08]

Doug Eddings is a fine American and made an excellent call with perfectly acceptable mechanics.

.

.

.

.

.

.

I will admit that there is a small, barely perceptible chance that I may, possibly be a tad biased on that, of course.

Spoken like a true fan.

[MidAmUmp]

Sometimes it is their job to know the situation as well. In fact, I've considered getting rid of that pregame discussion with the <acronym title='Catcher'>F2</acronym>'s as well. I'm not responsible for coaching the players...their coach is responsible for teaching <acronym title='Catcher'>F2</acronym> and hitters the scenarios. When in doubt run, when in doubt tag or throw to F3. Pretty simple. I'm done verbalizing since I had two batter/runners stop running on me when they heard "catch" instead of the "no" piece several years ago...and yes, I used the "correct" emphasis on "no" and "catch"

Since then, zero issues. No verbalize for me.

Using this philosophy, maybe we shouldn't make any verbal calls period. The runners should just know to go back to the dugout or stay on a base.

You have to give some sort of verbal. It doesn't have to be "no catch" but you need to say something.

I'm pretty sure your NCAA supervisors in Minnesota would agree with me on that...since I'm good friends with them.

[johnnyg08]

I don't think we need to get rid of all verbals. (I know you're joking and making your point at the same time)

JP says "no" and avoids using "catch" but at the winter clinic in Feb. there was not a consensus one way or another. No official word at that time from SV.

Some guys say nothing, and are okay w/ it. Again, I'm not saying I'm right...just that it works for me.

Also, when I come down to your clinic in September, I'll go w/ the break out group that doesn't spend 45 minutes debating the D3K. :notworthy: