Umpires Overruling Umpires

[TNCoach]

About 3 or 4 years ago I had a team in an ASA league. There was a play at 2nd which the fielding umpire made. It went for us, but the next batter up (also the other team's coach) argued to the home plate umpire. The home plate umpire overruled the fielding umpire. I was playing short stop and the field umpire looked at me and he said that he would have to go with the other umpire's decision even though he didn't ask for help. I just smiled and told him I wasn't going to argue and put him in a bad position, but that he needed to talk to the younger guy behind the plate and let him no the procedures. Next thing I know he yells at the umpire behind the plate and tells him he better never show him up again.

In the championship game later that season, we had the younger guy that was behind the plate in the previous game as our field umpire. Play at the plate, for the winning run umpire calls safe. He comes running in and calls the runner out for sliding into the catcher who was blocking the plate. He said you must try to avoid contact and our runner just slid over the catcher. Aside from the mess that was caused by him overruling the call with out being asked twice now, his fiance was coaching first base for the other team. Don't you just love leagues like this!

Now, my question is, what would you do if your partner overruled you on a call that you made?

Another story. In a league I coach in, each school is responsible for getting an umpire. We get ours through the state association. Many schools get one who is certified through the association but is not assigned by them. The only limits are, an umpire is not allowed to be a close relative of the coach or a player, and the umpire cannot be employed by the school.

One game, our umpire was in his umpire uniform. The other umpire is in street clothes and an employee of the other school. Our umpire made a call. The other umpire overruled him. They started yelling at each other on the field. I went out and asked our umpire, appointed by the state office, to just let it go if he didn't mind. I told him that I agreed with his call, but if it would be easier, then just let the other ump overrule him unless he did not want to because of himself. I told him not to take up for us.

[DirtyDawg]

Slowpitch softball.......I don't really know, I always get stuck behind the plate for slowpitch, so people always expect me to overrule an umpires call......they kind of freak out when I don't. I tell all my partners I may ask for help or they may ask for help, but we never overrule each other. Not only does it look bad, but it leaves tempers on the field in places that there should be cohesion!!

[TNCoach]

Trust me, I don't take slow pitch softball all that seriously. It is more of a leisure thing for me. But, it was just the whole idea of overruling another ump. When I umpired, I never tipped my hand either way as to how I felt. Then, if the other ump asked for help, I never made a call without conferencing on any type of fielding play. Check swings were one thing.

[Umpire in Chief]

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER over rule your partner. If you have an I have information signal, use it and discretely tell him what you have. It's then up to him to either stick with it or change his call.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER over rule your partner. If you have an I have information signal, use it and discretely tell him what you have. It's then up to him to either stick with it or change his call.

Can I add a few more NEVER's????B)

Unless of course you want one less umpire who will work with you

[DirtyDawg]

Hell, I'd almost leave the field that day and tell the other umpire he's got it all under control!

[Mr Umpire]

If an umpire overrules me, I will call a conference real quick. I will let him know that he is about to make a phone call if he keeps doing that. The call will be to our assignor. He will be apologizing for my assignor wasting his time to book 2 umpires since 1 was sufficient.

After that, I will continue to do my job. I am not going to make a mockery of things on my end. But, I will chew his a$$ in between innings after I have done it during the conference. I will do it after the game. And, I will call the assignor in front of him to tell the assignor not to ever put me with him again if he can't straighten this guy out.

Of course, this is if it happens to me. I have yet to have any do it once I let them know how long I have been doing this and that I will ask if I need help.

[TNCoach]

The problem I had was, we were screwed out of a call. The umpire in both cases apologized for being overruled when he said he knew he had it right.

[catoblue]

I don't know about ASA rules, but OBR and LL Rules are pretty clear on the "overrule" aspect:

9.02© If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

There is a little wiggle room in the case of two or more umpires making different calls on the same play (situation where whose call it is might be in question and more than one makes the call):

9.04©If different decisions should be made on one play by different umpires, the umpire-in-chief shall call all the umpires into consultation, with no manager or player present. After consultation, the umpire-in-chief (unless another umpire may have been designated by the league president) shall determine which decision shall prevail, based on which umpire was in best position and which decision was most likely correct. Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made.

The OP falls under 9.02© and were I the "overruled" umpire, I would request to never work with this tool again, and were I a coach, I'd ask the association to not assign him to any more of my games.

Edited June 25, 2010 by catoblue

[Umpire in Chief]

I've had numerous occaisions on the field to want to over rule my partner. The one time I've been over ruled by my partner still gets me fired up just thinking about it. I'm the Jr umpire on the crew and on the bases R2 2 outs. Pony ball. Batter hits a grounder through the infield R2 is heading home. F5 in moving around and not paying attention and bumps R2 I call and point the OBS. The fielder guns it two the plate, where we have a banger and my partner bangs the runner out.

I call time talk to my partner and tell him I had OBS by F5 and the run should score. He says that protection ended when he passed 3rd. We go back and forth and I'm not getting anywhere. He pulls the seniority card, so I give up.

The 3rd base coach is now yelling at me because I called the OBS. All I could say to him is "Yes, I did." I wanted to say "My idiot partner doesn't know the rules and overruled me like an a$$hole." But I didn't, and to top it off my partner knew what the coach was yelling about and it ended up being his call so he should have stepped up and said, " Hey coach that's my call ..."

[Dragon29]

I haven't had this happen to me, but I'm thinking I wouldn't allow my partner to overrule me. Since it's actually against the rules for him to do so, my response would be something like, "I know you saw it differently, but since it's my call and it's against the rules for either of us to overrule one another, we'll be sticking with my call." and if need be, explain it to the coach(es) that way.

I know some people will say I'm throwing my partner under the bus by doing this, but in my view, I'm just crawling out from under that bus - it's not my fault if he then gets sucked in!

[poppyfor3]

So---- shooting him is bad form???

[Mike Prince]

If working with a new partner we cover what calls I will have and what calls he will have in pregame. This avoids us both making a simultaneous call on a play, but it is a great opportunity to also say "If I need help on a call I will ask you, and I expect you to do the same if you need help".

I agree with many of the above comments, take charge on the field when it is your call, and emphasize after the game to your partner what he did wrong so you can help him improve.

[noumpere]

I call time talk to my partner and tell him I had OBS by F5 and the run should score.

You had the obstruction -- you have the award. Don't call time and talk to him -- make the award as soon as he has the out.

[Umpire in Chief]

You had the obstruction -- you have the award. Don't call time and talk to him -- make the award as soon as he has the out.

I definitely should have been more assertive.

[kwiggie]

In regards to this subject here is a scenario that came to be last season, just to let you guys (as if you didn't already know) what we are up against.

A situation on a questionable play (in the eyes of the oc) arose, not going to bore you with details... not important. My partner (pu) made the call, stood by his call, it was a judgement call, imo from what I saw he got it right, there is no info that I could give from 60+ feet away that would change anything. The oc starts screaming, hollering for my partner to appeal to me for help. My partner stands firm with his call... judgment call. "Come on Blue get in there (to me), help your partner out to get it right! You know he missed it we all saw it, Go do your job and OVERRULE him!"

So after the top half of that inning ends out comes the oc to address me about my job. "It is your responsibility to adjust that call made by your partner when he is wrong!" You need to grow some balls and OVERRULE your partner for the sake of getting it right!" This is a monomono conversation so I am listening at this point, oc didn't run out to the feild nor did he make a scene of it, waited for me to move over to the A position to address me prior to the start of the inning.

"Coach, do you understand that there are rules in place so that I cannot jump in and intercede in my partners calls, unless he asks for help. Even then I am not OVERRULING on anything, only giving up info that I have, he still has the call. Do you know why this rule is in place? Do you understand that it is (to a certain degree) to protect teams from a "homer" umpire on the feild as you are claiming right now?"

The crazy thing is that this manager has been around forever, hell I played against his teams back in the 90"s. Open up the rules book, I swear. Read it once, do some highlighting, get familier with it, you have been a manager of a well respected organization for 15+ years and yet you still believe in such things like the hands are a part of the bat, and are willing to argue about it!

There are two types of coaches,

1. The coach that bitches and parades about rules he doesn't knowunderstand.

2. The coach that shuts-up when he realizes that he doesn't knowunderstand the rules that are being enforcednot enforced. My :HS

[willv28]

I haven't had this happen to me, but I'm thinking I wouldn't allow my partner to overrule me. Since it's actually against the rules for him to do so, my response would be something like, "I know you saw it differently, but since it's my call and it's against the rules for either of us to overrule one another, we'll be sticking with my call." and if need be, explain it to the coach(es) that way.

I know some people will say I'm throwing my partner under the bus by doing this, but in my view, I'm just crawling out from under that bus - it's not my fault if he then gets sucked in!

Like UIC, I had this happen to me in one of my first tournament games ever. Heck, one of my first games ever. I was with people from another area I'd never worked with (at that point I had only worked with one set of people).

I don't remember the play exactly, it was R2, 1 out I believe.

In this case I had ruled INT when the batted ball hit R2 going to 3rd. After the play, the PU called me over. I was old enough to know what this meant. So I come into the conversation politely asking what he had and I would use it to decide if I would change the call. At this point, I'm still not 100% sure on everything I do. He says the ball passed an infielder and shouldn't be INT and he will change it if I didn't. But very mean like. He was also the tournament director for this game, and pulled out that card as well. I don't remember the play exactly, I was fuming the rest of the game (on the inside), because i knew how this happened was wrong, I don't care about the play, but this was wrong. I'm pretty sure F6 who was making the play on the ball was behind the runner with F5 playing on the grass in front of the runner (softball). I ended up changing the call and we put the BR on 1st and R2 on 3rd.

After that, I had a different view and wanted to take a different approach than this guy did to doing this. It's one thing if you do it just to do it. But this guy was a mockery. Looked like he's been in jail 10 times and drinks a lot, shin guards on the outside of his pants. One of those ball bags that looks like a deflated balloon hanging from his belt. Dancing between innings to the music, dirty jokes, etc. I was embarrassed, and I thought I looked bad enough in my cheap shirt and slacks at the time.

I don't care if they were right, wrong or somewhere in between. You don't throw someone under the bus like that.

[willv28]

There are two types of coaches,

1. The coach that bitches and parades about rules he doesn't knowunderstand.

2. The coach that shuts-up when he realizes that he doesn't knowunderstand the rules that are being enforcednot enforced. My

3. The coach that is/was an umpire that THINKS they know the rules and uses that as proof.

[noumpere]

"Come on Blue get in there (to me), help your partner out to get it right! You know he missed it we all saw it, Go do your job and OVERRULE him!"

So after the top half of that inning ends out comes the oc to address me about my job. "It is your responsibility to adjust that call made by your partner when he is wrong!" You need to grow some balls and OVERRULE your partner for the sake of getting it right!" This is a monomono conversation so I am listening at this point, oc didn't run out to the feild nor did he make a scene of it, waited for me to move over to the A position to address me prior to the start of the inning.

You need to address both these situations. You let the coach steamroller right over you.

[mstaylor]

The PU should tossed him in the original sitch. When he came to you, you should have cut him off and tell that you absolutely can't overrule your partner by rule, plus he got it right. If he continued toss him.