Appeal process

[Tyennie]

This might fit better under situation but what the heck: JrBR (13 -15) I am PU,

Here it is: R2, R3. Passed ball, R3 scores, R2 misses third base ( i see this as F2 and F1 are playing keep away, attempting a play on R3). R2 scores. F2 and F5 in conversation state that "he missed third base" An appeal is made - but no verbal clarification on which runner they were appealing. Appeal was made to partner, who called R2 safe. Def. coach brought rule book onto field (shame, shame) and said "Nowhere does it say in the book the def. must clarify which runner."

Ty: "Then how do we know which runner you are talking about?"

Coach: You could have asked

Ty: That is your job to know coach.

In this instance is it necessary for the defense to clarify which runner?

[Rich Ives]

This might fit better under situation but what the heck: JrBR (13 -15) I am PU,

Here it is: R2, R3. Passed ball, R3 scores, R2 misses third base ( i see this as F2 and F1 are playing keep away, attempting a play on R3). R2 scores. F2 and F5 in conversation state that "he missed third base" An appeal is made - but no verbal clarification on which runner they were appealing. Appeal was made to partner, who called R2 safe. Def. coach brought rule book onto field (shame, shame) and said "Nowhere does it say in the book the def. must clarify which runner."

Ty: "Then how do we know which runner you are talking about?"

Coach: You could have asked

Ty: That is your job to know coach.

In this instance is it necessary for the defense to clarify which runner?

Yes - they have to let you know which runner.

It is also OK for you to ask which runner.

[noumpere]

It is also OK for you to ask which runner.

Not only is it "OK", it's preferred.

This umpire took what was a routine appeal and turned it into an adversarial process. We (as umpires) hate it when a coach does this; we shouldn't do it.

[catoblue]

Ditto what Rich said.

[Tyennie]

groovy, cool and all those other hippie words, thanks for the replies. ty

[PeteBooth]

[

QUOTE=Tyennie;51563]

Def. coach brought rule book onto field (shame, shame) and said "Nowhere does it say in the book the def. must clarify which runner."

Ty: "Then how do we know which runner you are talking about?"

Coach: You could have asked

Ty: That is your job to know coach.

In this instance is it necessary for the defense to clarify which runner?

[txump81]

To me, there was only one runner that missed 3B, so it is obvious who they are appealing.

After reading back, at the age mentioned, I would think they could be more specific, and I would probably ask also. Any younger and I am probably dumbfounded that they appealed correctly. I saw the clip from the LL WS the other day and it was almost painful to watch as the pitcher would get ready to pitch, call TIME and then try the appeal.

[Dragon29]

To me, there was only one runner that missed 3B, so it is obvious who they are appealing.

Of course it's obvious to you - you saw it - but that doesn't matter. The defense is required to make a proper appeal - don't help them.

As others have stated, don't be adversarial, but you're not there to coach. If more than one runner passed the base at which they're appealing, ask them which runner's touch they're appealing. If they select the wrong runner, rule accordingly. And, yes, they can then select the next runner and have an appeal upheld provided there was no intervening pitch or play (an appeal does not constitute a play)

[PeteBooth]

To me, there was only one runner that missed 3B, so it is obvious who they are appealing.

You are NOT the coach and what is OBVIOUS to you might not be to the team appealing.

IMO, if you continue on "this path" eventually you will get "burned"

It's no biggie and takes all of 30 seconds.

Mngr: "Pete the runner missed third"

Me: "Rich which runner "

Rich: "Pete Number 23 "

Me: "Rich there is no number 23 on the other team" (just kidding) "He's out / safe "

Like I said all of 30 seconds and it avoids possible confusion.

Pete Booth

[txump81]

Here was my point. You had R2 and R3. The OP says the appeal was made which tells me they threw the ball to 3B and said he missed the base.

How could R3 have missed the base--he was there. The only runner that could have missed the base was R2.

If there was a question, yes I would require clarification by asking. In the OP, it doesn't seem to me that any clarification was needed as only 1 runner could have possibly missed 3B. Now if it was at HP, different story. I need to know which runner.

[Dragon29]

txump81,

Good point.

I think I was confused by the fact the OP'er actually asked the question in the first place! I didn't want to let the facts get in the way of a perfectly reasonable answer! :D

[Rich Ives]

Here was my point. You had R2 and R3. The OP says the appeal was made which tells me they threw the ball to 3B and said he missed the base.

How could R3 have missed the base--he was there. The only runner that could have missed the base was R2.

If there was a question, yes I would require clarification by asking. In the OP, it doesn't seem to me that any clarification was needed as only 1 runner could have possibly missed 3B. Now if it was at HP, different story. I need to know which runner.

We're not discussing this particular play - we're discussing whether or not the umpire can ask which runner is being appealed

because in the OP this was said

(Coach) "Nowhere does it say in the book the def. must clarify which runner."

Ty: "Then how do we know which runner you are talking about?"

Coach: You could have asked

Ty: That is your job to know coach.

[yawetag]

In any situation with two or more runners touching the same base during a play, I'm asking for clarification. Yes, I know that only R2 "touched" 3B, but I'm not opening a can of worms.

"Blue, we're appealing he missed 3B."

"Who missed it?"

"The runner from 2B" or "Number 12" or "The guy that scored last" or ANYTHING that makes it obvious.

"Okay." and make the call.

Why do I do this? So I don't screw it up the time two people actually passed the base. I look at it similar to calling a foul tip when no one's on base and less than two strikes -- it doesn't change the situation, but it keeps me from second-guessing everytime it does happen.

With this said, I've had two appeals this year -- both safe.

[txump81]

That's a good idea. It will also help the coach in future games. I will remember this thread when I have this happen next time. Notice I said when not "if". With the age I umpire, it is definitely when as there is no telling what will happen on the small diamond.

[Tyennie]

Glad I could get us all thinking. Thanks again for the input.

As a side note to this situation. The catcher, although he knew that he needed to appeal. (i don't think the coach actually said anything to F2, rather F2 just knew), the old " Yo pitcher, take the ball get on the rubber, step off and throw to 3rd" were the directions given by F2 to his hurler. Mind you the ball was never declared out of play.

[spiritump]

You are NOT the coach and what is OBVIOUS to you might not be to the team appealing.

IMO, if you continue on "this path" eventually you will get "burned"

It's no biggie and takes all of 30 seconds.

Mngr: "Pete the runner missed third"

Me: "Rich which runner "

Rich: "Pete Number 23 "

Me: "Rich there is no number 23 on the other team" (just kidding) "He's out / safe "

Like I said all of 30 seconds and it avoids possible confusion.

Pete Booth

be careful as a umpire you might not see the number--ask the coach witch runner and what base --in this case the only runner to miss 3rd was the one who started on second.