Knob or Hand? What Do Ya Do?

[Replacematt]

But it seems to me that more and more, at all levels, getting the play right trumps over all other reasons.

Data is showing that trying to "get the call right" leads to an increase in missed calls.

Where can we read/see this 'data' ?

Just watch games on TV. Watch replays of plays where crews get together and most calls that get changed are wrong. I don't know that anybody tracks it but getting together rewards and wrong calls.

It is a data set that (I believe) Tim had mentioned elsewhere, specific to MLB.

[Replacematt]

I guess I just dont agree with this. If my partner is unwilling to help, or feels that I am "putting him in a precarious situation" then he can go ref basketball. Also, how would a BU disagree with my call? He would say, I saw it differently,and we would come to a decision and present a united front to the coach. I called time, so immediately the play is dead, and I went for help with my partner. If I go to him and he doesnt know, then the result is the same. We present a united front to the coach. A coach isnt standing next to me while I confer with my partner ( or he will be asked to leave ) and doesnt hear the conversation anyway. Being forceful in your call doesnt mitigate the fact that your wrong. ( if you are ) You may have avoided a few arguments by being forceful and automatic in your call, but if you got them wrong and changed the game THAT is just as wrong.

What gives you the idea that anything your partner has to offer is better from an inferior position and a greater distance than what you have?

[Forest Ump]

If you need to... take a look at his hand.. a lot of times you can see the ball marks on his hand.. it will help you sell it..nothing wrong with looking.

Good advise. While you're at it, squeeze his hand and tell him quietly to yell. That will sell it.

[yawetag]

According to Ron Kulpa, MLB umpires only missed one fair/foul call in 2011. It was one of his arguments against instant replay for fair/foul decisions.

[detailshp]

I guess I just dont agree with this. If my partner is unwilling to help, or feels that I am "putting him in a precarious situation" then he can go ref basketball. Also, how would a BU disagree with my call? He would say, I saw it differently,and we would come to a decision and present a united front to the coach. I called time, so immediately the play is dead, and I went for help with my partner. If I go to him and he doesnt know, then the result is the same. We present a united front to the coach. A coach isnt standing next to me while I confer with my partner ( or he will be asked to leave ) and doesnt hear the conversation anyway. Being forceful in your call doesnt mitigate the fact that your wrong. ( if you are ) You may have avoided a few arguments by being forceful and automatic in your call, but if you got them wrong and changed the game THAT is just as wrong.

What gives you the idea that anything your partner has to offer is better from an inferior position and a greater distance than what you have?

Around here we expect the base ump to be looking in at the pitch. That way he can catch things exactly like this. If your concentrating on the ball as the PU and you lose sight of it because its coming into the batter and disappears into his body and you cant see it ( which happened to me at least 3 times last year ) then he is expected to help you out. His angle would be the proper position, as you can no longer see the ball. But maybe you CAN see the ball just like the MLB guys did on the infamous Jeter play. Just like the base ump would be looking for ball that might graze the foot or leg of a batter as he is in/out of the box after the swinging bunt.

Maybe you really can see the ball no matter where it goes, and you never make a wrong call. Its all good to me. But, I will be asking for help if I have a question, and this scenario is one of countless situations where some help might stop you from kicking it.

[Replacematt]

I guess I just dont agree with this. If my partner is unwilling to help, or feels that I am "putting him in a precarious situation" then he can go ref basketball. Also, how would a BU disagree with my call? He would say, I saw it differently,and we would come to a decision and present a united front to the coach. I called time, so immediately the play is dead, and I went for help with my partner. If I go to him and he doesnt know, then the result is the same. We present a united front to the coach. A coach isnt standing next to me while I confer with my partner ( or he will be asked to leave ) and doesnt hear the conversation anyway. Being forceful in your call doesnt mitigate the fact that your wrong. ( if you are ) You may have avoided a few arguments by being forceful and automatic in your call, but if you got them wrong and changed the game THAT is just as wrong.

What gives you the idea that anything your partner has to offer is better from an inferior position and a greater distance than what you have?

Around here we expect the base ump to be looking in at the pitch. That way he can catch things exactly like this. If your concentrating on the ball as the PU and you lose sight of it because its coming into the batter and disappears into his body and you cant see it ( which happened to me at least 3 times last year ) then he is expected to help you out. His angle would be the proper position, as you can no longer see the ball. But maybe you CAN see the ball just like the MLB guys did on the infamous Jeter play. Just like the base ump would be looking for ball that might graze the foot or leg of a batter as he is in/out of the box after the swinging bunt.

Maybe you really can see the ball no matter where it goes, and you never make a wrong call. Its all good to me. But, I will be asking for help if I have a question, and this scenario is one of countless situations where some help might stop you from kicking it.

You're moving the goalposts. You were talking about going for help AFTER making a call--now you're saying you're the one with a question.

I still will tell you that for the purpose of this thread, BU is not going to be of help. He is not going to be able to tell knob or hand if you can't.

[johnnyg08]

But it seems to me that more and more, at all levels, getting the play right trumps over all other reasons.

Data is showing that trying to "get the call right" leads to an increase in missed calls.

Where can we read/see this 'data' ?

I've seen it too, I just have to find it.

[mstaylor]

I say it completely from empirical data. I know in college and MLB they screw up as much as they fix.

[plateumpire29]

I'm keying off the batter. If he's hopping around right away, shaking his hand, I've got a hit batsman. If he doesn't react, I'm looking for the ball (hopefully, I've also noticed whether it struck him in the box ,or not), whether it is fair or foul. If I don't have a pain reaction from the batter, I have it striking the bat. If the batter thinks quick enough to put on an act, God bless him, he got me. That's an awfully tough one to get right. Over a career, if you're in the 90 percentile on that call, you're doing all right.

[umped up]

I've always been taught to sell what you believe and stick with it. Timing is crucial here, like many of you said, gather all the information around you then make the call and sell it. Believe in it and go with it and move on. Does anyone remember seeing in a college game ole miss against Arkansas. The left handed batter took a pitch high and in and he acted like it hit him. He put on one hell of an acting job. He acted like it hit him directly on the wrist. He hopped around holding his wrist, bending over in pain and the whole time he's doing this, the PU is not rewarding him the base. The replay clearly shows that the ball didn't even touch him. The ensuing pitch is KS and he points the bat at the ump in anger and gets TOSSED. What a knucklehead. Im going to try and post it, but Im not sure how to do it.

[umped up]

oops, I mean elbow.

[johnnyg08]

That is one of my all time favorite clips. What a cheating rat. In fact, he sold through his ejection. I'll bet that guys feels like one giant tool.

[Cajuncubsfan]

Fastball up and in.

You know the pitch hit something...

But you don't know if it hit the batters hand or the knob of the bat?

What do you do?

What are the different situations that can arise from this? How do you handle those situations?

Please teach me.

Some of you are going to love to hear this and probably think I deserved it.

I had this today, up and in pitch hits the knob of the bat and strait in to my Cup!!!! Down I went... A few seconds went by and it downed on me that I was Tebowing. After my partner gave me a minute to gather my thoughts I had to ask the batter if it hit him or the knob of the bat. Then I told the catcher that of he was going to set up camp on the outside of the plate all day that he needs to help me out with those inside pitches. He said "Yes Sir", he and I had already talked about the fact he was leaving me hanging and he really needed to be able to get the inside pitches.

Anyway, put a strike on the board and let's go!!!!

[johnnyg08]

I think it's more the pitchers fault for missing his spots than F2's fault.

[umpire78]

Fastball up and in.

You know the pitch hit something...

But you don't know if it hit the batters hand or the knob of the bat?

What do you do?

What are the different situations that can arise from this? How do you handle those situations?

Please teach me.

A situation I'm sure all of us have been in at one time or another. I'd have a talk with my partner to see what he saw. Then, review in your mind what you HEARD (a ball hitting the hand will make one sound, the knob will be different). Also, how far did the ball go - as if it hit his hand (and it lies close to HP) or did it hit the knob and end up halfway out to the mound? If there is still doubt, give the benefit of the doubt to the BATTER - HBP.

[umpire78]

I've always been taught to sell what you believe and stick with it. Timing is crucial here, like many of you said, gather all the information around you then make the call and sell it. Believe in it and go with it and move on. Does anyone remember seeing in a college game ole miss against Arkansas. The left handed batter took a pitch high and in and he acted like it hit him. He put on one hell of an acting job. He acted like it hit him directly on the wrist. He hopped around holding his wrist, bending over in pain and the whole time he's doing this, the PU is not rewarding him the base. The replay clearly shows that the ball didn't even touch him. The ensuing pitch is KS and he points the bat at the ump in anger and gets TOSSED. What a knucklehead. Im going to try and post it, but Im not sure how to do it.

What a Jackbutt. He tried pulling a "Derek Jeter" BUT DIDN'T GET AWAY WITH IT. I hope he served a multi-game suspension.

[johnnyg08]

Yep, this video is etched in eternity. I love it.

[yawetag]

What a Jackbutt. He tried pulling a "Derek Jeter" BUT DIDN'T GET AWAY WITH IT. I hope he served a multi-game suspension.

If I remember correctly, this clip was before Jeter's.

[johnnyg08]

Yes, long before Jeter's.

[Richvee]

The difference between Jeter's act this clown is, if Jeter would have got "caught" like this kid, he would have smirked and got back in the box. This little rat swings and misses at the next pitch, blames the umpire, then starts throwing stuff full force with supposedly hurting right elbow. What an assclown. :jerkit:

[etignor11]

I got a good tip at a clinic on this and that was to try to look at how the batter is gripping the bat as he steps in initially-before a pitch is thrown. Does he have a finger hanging off the bottom or is there a good inch or so between the pinky and the knob. This also helps you in "selling" the call. I used this in a LL game the other day and found it useful.

ME:"Coach there's no way it hit his hand, (I noted other evidence) also I noticed that he chokes up a good inch from the bottom of the bat.

COACH: "Really? (Johnny) grab the bat and get ready to hit.......(he sees I'm right after the kid grabs the bat). Wow, man you're good!

ME: "Just remember that the next time I miss one..... (big grin)."

......... add this to the million things to check as you go thru the game, right? LOL