3rd to 1st pick off / errant throw

[mmiller32]

Runners on third and first,pitcher trys the third to first pick off move. As he steps to third the ball slips and goes directly to the ground and rolls acrosses the foul line between home and third. runner on first steals second. what do you have?

Question brought up by a fellow umpire. I have nothing if a fielder was in position to receive the pick off throw unless ball goes into dead ball territory

[UmpJM]

mmiller32,

I have a throwing error on the pitcher and the R1 advancing to 2B on the error.

Whether or not there was a fielder in position to receive the pick off throw is immaterial.

JM

[mmiller32]

I also have nothing but an error on the pitcher as long as he steps toward an occupied 3rd, other runners may advance.

I thought 3rd had to be occupied in order to feint there, which is what the pitcer was attempting ?

[UmpJM]

mmiller,

It has to be "occupied" by a runner. Only at 1B must there also be a fielder in position to make a play.

JM

[mmiller32]

so that's what 'occupied' means?!

thanks for clarifying. I had the answer right when I explained it to him originally, just wanted to come on here for clariification

[Richvee]

I think this is a HTBT to a certain extent. The OP says he stepped to third and then the ball "slips". Did it slip while he was making a throwing motion? Something like "spiking" a football? Then yes, throwing error all the way. Or, did it slip out of his hand during his step towards third while he was taking his pitching hand with the ball out of his glove? Then I have a balk.

[UmpJM]

Richvee,

Which balk proscription do you believe was violated in your second description?

I have no balk either way.

JM

[JaxRolo]

Error

[Richvee]

Richvee,

Which balk proscription do you believe was violated in your second description?

I have no balk either way.

JM

Maybe I'm wrong. If he comes set. Stops. Starts a step to 3rd, and when he separates his hands, the ball slips out. Is that not a balk? IOW, the ball slips out before he starts a throwing motion.

I understand if he's in the process of throwing and it slips out of his hand- throwing error.

[yawetag]

Maybe I'm wrong. If he comes set. Stops. Starts a step to 3rd, and when he separates his hands, the ball slips out. Is that not a balk? IOW, the ball slips out before he starts a throwing motion.

I understand if he's in the process of throwing and it slips out of his hand- throwing error.

If he's made any movement for the pick-off, I'm not calling a balk. If it drops out and then he starts movement, I'm calling the balk (assuming it doesn't cross a foul line).

[johnnyg08]

I think this is a HTBT to a certain extent. The OP says he stepped to third and then the ball "slips". Did it slip while he was making a throwing motion? Something like "spiking" a football? Then yes, throwing error all the way. Or, did it slip out of his hand during his step towards third while he was taking his pitching hand with the ball out of his glove? Then I have a balk.

I'm in JM's camp here. Remember arm motion isn't even required for a fake to third. So how can you balk that?

[Richvee]

I was thinking balk for a dropped ball during a delivery. 6-1-4 seems to be the only place where a dropped ball is addressed. So, without any actual throw on the step to 3rd, I'm thinking the same rule would apply. Evidently, I'm thinking wrong....but learning :)

[UmpTTS43]

If the ball slips out during a throwing motion and the arm is going forward, nothing. If the ball slips out with no arm motion or as he prepares to throw during his windup, balk. Regardless if a pickoff attempt is made or not, you cannot drop a ball while in contact with the rubber.

[johnnyg08]

I was thinking balk for a dropped ball during a delivery. 6-1-4 seems to be the only place where a dropped ball is addressed. So, without any actual throw on the step to 3rd, I'm thinking the same rule would apply. Evidently, I'm thinking wrong....but learning

I see what you're saying. But TT's post above mine seems to make sense too.

[Replacematt]

So...

There's a step to third. The ball a: never leaves the glove or b: falls out of the glove. Where does a feint become illegal?

[UmpTTS43]

So...

There's a step to third. The ball a: never leaves the glove or b: falls out of the glove. Where does a feint become illegal?

It's not the feint that's illegal, it's the dropping of the ball while in contact. Two seperate rules.

[BT_Blue]

Maybe I'm wrong. If he comes set. Stops. Starts a step to 3rd, and when he separates his hands, the ball slips out. Is that not a balk? IOW, the ball slips out before he starts a throwing motion.

I understand if he's in the process of throwing and it slips out of his hand- throwing error.

If he's made any movement for the pick-off, I'm not calling a balk. If it drops out and then he starts movement, I'm calling the balk (assuming it doesn't cross a foul line).

Im with Yawetag here. Im not balking this. R1 will take second and the DHC will yell out at F1 to not do that again and we will all laugh. No issues here.