Awarding of bases

[jjskitours]

Man on third. Batter walks and has NOT arrived at first when catcher throws ball back to pitcher who wheels and attempts to pick off runner at third. Ball goes out of play. Score the runner at third. Place the batter runner.

I have him being awarded 3rd base. Can't exactly support my decision with NF Rule or Case Book. Anyone disagree with the award. How about any support for the award?

[spiritump]

place BR on second he had not reached first-- it is two bases.

[Replacematt]

Isn't the ball dead on a walk? :fuel:

[Replacematt]

In all seriousness, I'm thinking third here. You have an awarded base on the walk, then the two-base award due to the ball going OOP.

Just my hunch.

[scrounge]

In all seriousness, I'm thinking third here. You have an awarded base on the walk, then the two-base award due to the ball going <acronym title='Out of play'>OOP</acronym>.

Just my hunch.

Tough one. I was thinking 2nd myself, only because the B/R may be awarded first but had not yet attained that base. If the award is defined as the right to advance without a play being made, the B/R hadn't advanced yet, so 2 bases from time of throw would put him at 2nd. I could see it being defined the other way, though.

[johnnyg08]

Isn't the ball dead on a walk?

Now, now Matt! :stir

[johnnyg08]

This is a good question. I think we have two choices here. We can award Time of Pitch or Time of throw. Does "first play by an infielder" apply here or is that only on a batted ball?

The award in this situation is a live ball, one base award (the walk). Then, we have another play where a ball is thrown out of play. If you award 2B, that seems as though it would only be a one base award instead of a two base award which doesn't make sense...my gut tell me 3B, but I don't know for sure.

Good idea for a thread!

[grayhawk]

Interesting topic. Can't say I know the answer, but let me add this: With the bases loaded and 2 outs, the batter walks. As R3 is headed home, R2 rounds third base and is tagged out before R3 crosses the plate. In this case, the run scores because he was awarded home on the bases loaded walk (it's not a time play). Therefore, are we assuming that he had already achieved that base no matter the playing action that followed? If so, then award the BR third base in the original play.

[sdix00]

Interesting topic. Can't say I know the answer, but let me add this: With the bases loaded and 2 outs, the batter walks. As R3 is headed home, R2 rounds third base and is tagged out before R3 crosses the plate. In this case, the run scores because he was awarded home on the bases loaded walk (it's not a time play). Therefore, are we assuming that he had already achieved that base no matter the playing action that followed? If so, then award the BR third base in the original play.

This was my exact thinking, although I couldn't remember the parallel scenario.

[mw94]

B1 get Only 2nd Base , Those who say 3rd are wrong , Here is a case play , No one on Ball 4 to B1 for a walk , it was a wild pich that went over the back stop , B1 stays at 1st you do not assume he has 1st on the walk than send him to 2nd on the pitch out of play

[grayhawk]

B1 get Only 2nd Base , Those who say 3rd are wrong , Here is a case play , No one on Ball 4 to B1 for a walk , it was a wild pich that went over the back stop , B1 stays at 1st you do not assume he has 1st on the walk than send him to 2nd on the pitch out of play

I'm perfectly willing to admit I am wrong, but not because of this case play. Your case play involves a pitch instead of a throw, and a batter instead of a runner. It's completely irrelevant to the original post.

[johnnyg08]

I agree...while mw94's statement is correct, it is not relevant to our discussion.

[mrumpiresir]

B1 get Only 2nd Base , Those who say 3rd are wrong , Here is a case play , No one on Ball 4 to B1 for a walk , it was a wild pich that went over the back stop , B1 stays at 1st you do not assume he has 1st on the walk than send him to 2nd on the pitch out of play

I'm perfectly willing to admit I am wrong, but not because of this case play. Your case play involves a pitch instead of a throw, and a batter instead of a runner. It's completely irrelevant to the original post.

It is completely relevant.

Batter-Runner gets second base. In mw94's reply the pitched ball goes out of play. One base award and since the BR has not yet attained first he gets first base only. If the catcher throws the ball out of play it is a two base award and since the BR has not yet attained first, he gets second. same principle. Oh, and in both situations, we are talking about the batter-runner.

[Astrosdawg07]

...BR has not yet attained first...

Key phrase here!

[Replacematt]

B1 get Only 2nd Base , Those who say 3rd are wrong , Here is a case play , No one on Ball 4 to B1 for a walk , it was a wild pich that went over the back stop , B1 stays at 1st you do not assume he has 1st on the walk than send him to 2nd on the pitch out of play

I'm perfectly willing to admit I am wrong, but not because of this case play. Your case play involves a pitch instead of a throw, and a batter instead of a runner. It's completely irrelevant to the original post.

It is completely relevant.

Batter-Runner gets second base. In mw94's reply the pitched ball goes out of play. One base award and since the BR has not yet attained first he gets first base only. If the catcher throws the ball out of play it is a two base award and since the BR has not yet attained first, he gets second. same principle. Oh, and in both situations, we are talking about the batter-runner.

No, it's not relevant. The awards in this case are TOP, not TOT. BR was not a runner at TOP, therefore he is not awarded anything. In the OP, BR was already a runner at TOT.

[mrumpiresir]

B1 get Only 2nd Base , Those who say 3rd are wrong , Here is a case play , No one on Ball 4 to B1 for a walk , it was a wild pich that went over the back stop , B1 stays at 1st you do not assume he has 1st on the walk than send him to 2nd on the pitch out of play

I'm perfectly willing to admit I am wrong, but not because of this case play. Your case play involves a pitch instead of a throw, and a batter instead of a runner. It's completely irrelevant to the original post.

It is completely relevant.

Batter-Runner gets second base. In mw94's reply the pitched ball goes out of play. One base award and since the BR has not yet attained first he gets first base only. If the catcher throws the ball out of play it is a two base award and since the BR has not yet attained first, he gets second. same principle. Oh, and in both situations, we are talking about the batter-runner.

No, it's not relevant. The awards in this case are TOP, not TOT. BR was not a runner at TOP, therefore he is not awarded anything. In the OP, BR was already a runner at TOT.

Matt, what you say is true regarding TOP or TOT but in either case, in the OP it is a two base award and BR has not attained first. He is awarded second.

[grayhawk]

B1 get Only 2nd Base , Those who say 3rd are wrong , Here is a case play , No one on Ball 4 to B1 for a walk , it was a wild pich that went over the back stop , B1 stays at 1st you do not assume he has 1st on the walk than send him to 2nd on the pitch out of play

I'm perfectly willing to admit I am wrong, but not because of this case play. Your case play involves a pitch instead of a throw, and a batter instead of a runner. It's completely irrelevant to the original post.

It is completely relevant.

Batter-Runner gets second base. In mw94's reply the pitched ball goes out of play. One base award and since the BR has not yet attained first he gets first base only. If the catcher throws the ball out of play it is a two base award and since the BR has not yet attained first, he gets second. same principle. Oh, and in both situations, we are talking about the batter-runner.

The bolded above may have convinced me. Consider this play: Ball 4 deflects off F2's shin guard and rolls toward the dugout. While F2 is trying to pick up the ball, he kicks it into the dugout. BR is halfway to first at the time of the kick. In this case, I am going to award BR second (two bases from TOT (or, kick, in this case). The rest of the post about the pitch is still irrelevant because the batter was awarded first because it was ball 4, not because it was thrown over the backstop. Ask yourself this, would you award the batter first on a pitch thrown over the backstop on a 1-1 count? Of course not - it's just ball 2. Although, any runners would be awarded one base from TOP.

[johnnyg08]

B1 get Only 2nd Base , Those who say 3rd are wrong , Here is a case play , No one on Ball 4 to B1 for a walk , it was a wild pich that went over the back stop , B1 stays at 1st you do not assume he has 1st on the walk than send him to 2nd on the pitch out of play

I'm perfectly willing to admit I am wrong, but not because of this case play. Your case play involves a pitch instead of a throw, and a batter instead of a runner. It's completely irrelevant to the original post.

It is completely relevant.

Batter-Runner gets second base. In mw94's reply the pitched ball goes out of play. One base award and since the BR has not yet attained first he gets first base only. If the catcher throws the ball out of play it is a two base award and since the BR has not yet attained first, he gets second. same principle. Oh, and in both situations, we are talking about the batter-runner.

The bolded above may have convinced me. Consider this play: Ball 4 deflects off F2's shin guard and rolls toward the dugout. While F2 is trying to pick up the ball, he kicks it into the dugout. BR is halfway to first at the time of the kick. In this case, I am going to award BR second (two bases from TOT (or, kick, in this case). The rest of the post about the pitch is still irrelevant because the batter was awarded first because it was ball 4, not because it was thrown over the backstop. Ask yourself this, would you award the batter first on a pitch thrown over the backstop on a 1-1 count? Of course not - it's just ball 2. Although, any runners would be awarded one base from TOP.

What you are saying makes sense. I am now leaning more toward 2b on this one.

[mrumpiresir]

Matt is correct that the batter is not a baserunner at the time of the pitch on ball four, but my point on relevance is that the award is based on where the BR or runner is when the throw or pitch is made. See 7.05(g), especially the last sentence.

[Replacematt]

Matt is correct that the batter is not a baserunner at the time of the pitch on ball four, but my point on relevance is that the award is based on where the BR or runner is when the throw or pitch is made. See 7.05(g), especially the last sentence.

We're dealing FED here...but, as mentioned already, MLBUM has a caseplay where a runner is allowed to score on an awarded base even after the third out, so the principle of awarded bases being considered immediately achieved for the purposes of continuous action does have foundation.

[mrumpiresir]

Now that's irrelevant. Although first base is awarded on a base on balls, the BR has not attained first at the time of the throw and is awarded two bases from his position. Second Base. Are you still insisting the proper award is third base?

[Replacematt]

Now that's irrelevant. Although first base is awarded on a base on balls, the BR has not attained first at the time of the throw and is awarded two bases from his position. Second Base. Are you still insisting the proper award is third base?

I'm not insisting anything. There is a basis for both, absent authoritative guidance. Note that I said there is a logical basis for the foundation of awarding third (in OBR,) not that it was set in stone.

[mstaylor]

I'm torn, my first thought was third because the BR is awarded first. Upon further reflection I am leaning on TOT and the BR not being at first so second. It is definitely a TOT award, the thing is to decide if him not being to his awarded base causes him to lose a base or not. The TOP and the ball four/ball out of play quote is irrelevant.

[sdix00]

We may have one for Referee magazine.

Send it to them so they can give us the correct answ. . . never mind.

[midmoump]

Since when are base awards added consecutively?

If the defense throws the ball into the dugout during a Type A obstruction play, the runner gets two bases, not three. Take for example a play out of the J/R:

R1. Ground ball to F3 who throws wild to 2B and pulls F6 off the bag. F6 throws to 1B (second play). F1 is attempting to cover 1B and obstructs the B/R (Type A Obstruction). F6's throw goes into stands.

J/R says the Type A Obstruction awards the B/R 1B. HOWEVER, the overthrow means R1 scores, and the B/R goes to 2B, NOT 3B.

If the B/R is entitled to a batted ball/detached equipment award, but the defense throws the ball into the stands before he reaches first, the B/R gets third base, not home.

As for the OP, the rule book says it is a TOT award and based on the the position of the runners at the time of throw. The B/R is awarded 2B.

Look at MW94's example also. We don't add the BB award to a TOP award. When do we ever?

Pete