Awarding of bases

[UmpTTS43]

I'm not insisting anything. There is a basis for both, absent authoritative guidance. Note that I said there is a logical basis for the foundation of awarding third (in OBR,) not that it was set in stone.

There is absolutely zero basis for a 3rd base award. Authoritative guidance not necessary. Zero logical basis in awarding 3rd. 2 bases TOT period.

[Replacematt]

Since when are base awards added consecutively?

If the defense throws the ball into the dugout during a Type A obstruction play, the runner gets two bases, not three. Take for example a play out of the J/R:

R1. Ground ball to F3 who throws wild to 2B and pulls F6 off the bag. F6 throws to 1B (second play). F1 is attempting to cover 1B and obstructs the B/R (Type A Obstruction). F6's throw goes into stands.

J/R says the Type A Obstruction awards the B/R 1B. HOWEVER, the overthrow means R1 scores, and the B/R goes to 2B, NOT 3B.

Here's where the problem lies...the award of second is the award for OBS, because it is what nullifies the OBS. Without OBS, the runner gets second. With OBS, the runner gets second. The only reason this interpretation has to exist is because the ball is dead immediately on OBS in this case, the ball would technically never go out of play, and it would bail the defense out of a mistake. It's not two separate issues, it's one superceding the other. That is not the case in the OP.

Again, TOT makes sense. On the other hand, that reading bails the defense out of a mistake. If you understand the principle behind the example that you gave, that actually would support an award of third.

There does need to be an authoritative opinion on this, despite what some people might say.

[scrounge]

For me, it comes down to the definition of what a base award is. It's defined as the right to advance without a play being made. Not the advance itself, but merely the right to do so. In the example, the B/R has been awarded the right to advance to 1B but, at the time of the throw/infraction, had not yet done so. Now there's a concurrent award, the right to advance 2 bases from TOT. I don't see any basis or reason to assume they'd be consecutive - the B/R still has the existing right to advance to 1B and also has the right to advance 2 bases from TOT, which would be 1B and 2B. I'd say he gets 2nd, not 3rd.

I'm not a lawyer (though I did take the LSAT once), so I don't know if I'm getting too legalistic on the semantics, but it seems by going back to the definition of what an award actually is, the answer to this one breaks down pretty logically.

[mmiller32]

For me, it comes down to the definition of what a base award is. It's defined as the right to advance without a play being made. Not the advance itself, but merely the right to do so. In the example, the B/R has been awarded the right to advance to 1B but, at the time of the throw/infraction, had not yet done so. Now there's a concurrent award, the right to advance 2 bases from TOT. I don't see any basis or reason to assume they'd be consecutive - the B/R still has the existing right to advance to 1B and also has the right to advance 2 bases from TOT, which would be 1B and 2B. I'd say he gets 2nd, not 3rd.

I'm not a lawyer (though I did take the LSAT once), so I don't know if I'm getting too legalistic on the semantics, but it seems by going back to the definition of what an award actually is, the answer to this one breaks down pretty logically.

Well said and agree 100%

[grayhawk]

Not that I wasn't convinced enough to change my mind already, but I emailed the baseball rules interpreter for CIF-SS (California Interscholastic Federation - Southern Section). He confirmed that it's just a TOT award - nothing more or less.

Put simply, I think I was just guilty of overthinking the situation.

[mstaylor]

Not that I wasn't convinced enough to change my mind already, but I emailed the baseball rules interpreter for CIF-SS (California Interscholastic Federation - Southern Section). He confirmed that it's just a TOT award - nothing more or less.

Put simply, I think I was just guilty of overthinking the situation.

I never doubted it was a TOT award, I just wasn't decided to assume him at first already. I agree that second is the base.

[grayhawk]

Not that I wasn't convinced enough to change my mind already, but I emailed the baseball rules interpreter for CIF-SS (California Interscholastic Federation - Southern Section). He confirmed that it's just a TOT award - nothing more or less.

Put simply, I think I was just guilty of overthinking the situation.

I never doubted it was a TOT award, I just wasn't decided to assume him at first already. I agree that second is the base.

Meant to say that he said it is a simple TOT award and the actual postion of the BR determines his two base award. Here is the text of his email:

"The question is where was B1 when the pitcher threw to first? Since the pitcher was off the rubber, it is two bases time of the throw. So, if B1 had not reached first base he would be awarded 2nd. If B1 had reached first base, he would be awarded 3rd The fact that B1 was awarded first has no bearing if the ball is thrown out of play. The question is where was B1 when the ball was thrown?"

[mstaylor]

Not that I wasn't convinced enough to change my mind already, but I emailed the baseball rules interpreter for CIF-SS (California Interscholastic Federation - Southern Section). He confirmed that it's just a TOT award - nothing more or less.

Put simply, I think I was just guilty of overthinking the situation.

I never doubted it was a TOT award, I just wasn't decided to assume him at first already. I agree that second is the base.

Meant to say that he said it is a simple TOT award and the actual postion of the BR determines his two base award. Here is the text of his email:

"The question is where was B1 when the pitcher threw to first? Since the pitcher was off the rubber, it is two bases time of the throw. So, if B1 had not reached first base he would be awarded 2nd. If B1 had reached first base, he would be awarded 3rd The fact that B1 was awarded first has no bearing if the ball is thrown out of play. The question is where was B1 when the ball was thrown?"

I absolutely agree, I was just trying to convince myself in my mind that the award of first and the position of the BR TOT was in conflict or not. I agree he goes to second.

[jjskitours]

A fellow umpire (mid 50's) is currently finishing the 5 week Jim Evans camp in Orlando.

He hit Dick "Sarge" Nelson, an old time umpire and one of the main instructors with this

situation and he said that he is quite certain that the batter/runner is awarded two bases

from the time of the throw -- so in this case it is second base.

I'd say that's a wrap on this issue. Besides most everyone seems to be leaning in that direction.

[johnnyg08]

I would agree with you. That's what we needed was a nice, solid Authoritative Opinion.