Is this cheating?

[JaxRolo]

Had this situation a few years ago.

1 Out

R1, Batter lays a perfect bunt. F1, F2, F3,F5 Run up t get the ball.

F4 Covers First, F6 Covers 3rd

Nobody pays attention to R1 who immediately makes a Beeline from First to Third bypassing 2nd. Crossed right over the pitchers mound.

No one saw it but me and the 3rd base coach.

F2 picks up the bunt and throws to first. Out at 1b. Now R3

Next batter up, no appeal.

I was laughing inside! :angel4:

[Astrosdawg07]

No, not if anyone tried to make a play R1. Would just needed an appeal to 2nd to get the out.

[yawetag]

Is it cheating? Of course? Is it something you can call without an appeal? Nope.

There's a coach around here that will bunt with R2. The bunt will be down the first base line. As R2 comes to 3B, he rounds it about 10 feet early and breaks for home. If no one is watching, no one knows it's been done.

[tjthresh]

Its cheating, incredibly ballsy, and totally awesome.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

My only comment here is actually a question..Was there no one on the bench who saw this?? What game are they watching:agasp_:??

[JaxRolo]

My only comment here is actually a question..Was there no one on the bench who saw this?? What game are they watching:agasp_:??

That's what i'm saying. I am standing there waiting to hear something but "nothing"

I was amazed to say the least.

Batter up! Play!

[catoblue]

Its cheating, incredibly ballsy, and totally awesome.

ditto!!!!

[BrianC14]

Jax,

What age group was this?

[JaxRolo]

Jax,

What age group was this?

This was a 12U Travel Ball Team

[jjb]

Idiot coach: he's got a runner in scoring position at second, and he could end up with two quick outs instead...

[BrianC14]

This was a 12U Travel Ball Team

So this is a group of children playing baseball, and their coach is (evidently) teaching them to cheat.

And we have at least two umpires here who find this to be "awesome" ?

Pretty sad.

[tjthresh]

So this is a group of children playing baseball, and their coach is (evidently) teaching them to cheat.

And we have at least two umpires here who find this to be "awesome" ?

Pretty sad.

Other than they were able to get way with it, what sad about it.

I don't condone cheating, and I certainly don't condone teaching kids to cheat. I think its funny that a coach had the balls to do that. I would have never considered it.

The story made me laugh.

I'm sorry you think I'm sad.

Edited March 23, 2010 by tjthresh

[BrianC14]

What's sad about it?

Well if you don't get it, I'm not about to waste my time explaining it to you. :BD:

[Stan W.]

Years ago we had a coach in our league who had an extremely fast runner as a lead off batter ....he would get on first, steal second on the next pitch and then the batter would bunt toward first......

R2 would be moving on the pitch..... if the ball was bunted clean, he would have R2 cut the bag at the cutout and head directly home.....almost always scored on a clean bunt.....

he knew the inherent shortcomings of the 2 umpire system and that he often had umpires that were not versed on proper mechanics.....

we spread it throught the youth association ranks to remember to watch for touches of the bases when doing his teams....

when faced with umpires prioperly looking for the touch he stopped having his kids do it.....

[jjb]

One way to make us better umpires is to find out that coaches are taking advantage of our laziness. I watched a 1st base coach instruct his runner to run in fair territory on a bunt, so the catchers' throw will hit him. When I told him about lane interference, he looked me in the eye and said, "I know, but you guys don't call it".

.... He didn't know I had just gotten the Director of Umpire Training job.....

[kcfan102]

This is sad. You saw him run across the diamond to advance. It's funny when t-ball players do that. It's ok for little Joesph to run to the pitchers rubber then to first, then to second. But to have ball player who is old enough to know better go from first to third the easy way is sad. To have an umpire SEE it but not call it, is even more sad.

I would laugh too... while my right fist is in the air for...

7.08 Any runner is out when—

(2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base

or... I could even stretch this one...

7.08 Any runner is out when—

(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;

This is making a mockery of the game, in my opinion. Do that on my field, I might even give you the boot.

[Dragon29]

Brandon,

Gotta agree w/ump_24 here - you can't make the out call using either of those rules. Just have to wait for the appeal process that's actually in the rules.

tjthresh - I'll try & explain it, since BrianC14 is so disgusted (& I certainly don't blame him) This kind of thing is funny only if done unintentionally. (a la T-Ball)

A kid cheating is bad, but sometimes they don't know better. An adult cheating is worse; they should know by now. An adult teaching a kid to cheat is shameful and wrong. What kind of kid/player are you trying to create? I have no problems with adult coaches and managers teaching their players to take advantage of the other teams (or even the umpires) mistakes, but I have a big problem with them teaching them to circumvent the rules.

[JaxRolo]

Brandon,

That would be a gross misapplication of two rules.

As I am sure you know, the only way to declare a runner as out of the baseline would be if a defensive player attempted to make a play on them. Furthermore, this is not abandonment. To abandon, a runner must head either to their dugout or to their defensive position.

Regarding your number 2, he is not running the bases in reverse order. Therefore, that rule does not apply either.

No rule does. You must simply sit back and shake your head, saying nothing unless the defense appeals.

I agree there is no way around this but way for the appeal. If I had called an out on the play there would have been no way to justify it.

[Mr Umpire]

Sorry, but morals are not a part of umpiring. Though I don't see this as "awesome", I don't agree with it being "cheating". No rule says the runner has to physically touch the bases in order. If that were true, then we'd be calling things similar to SC's FED appeal play. Just call them out as soon as the umpire sees the miss.

No rule has been "circumvented". Once a runner has passed a base, he has acquired that base. If missed and an appeal follows, then the runner shall be called out on appeal. What is "circumvented"? The offense broke no rules or a violation would be called. They played "bush" league tactics but did not violate any rules. This is no different than the "Skunk in the outfield" play.

It is up to the defense to catch it. I do not like it by no means. But, I am not going to label it as "cheating" or "circumventing" the rules b/c it isn't. No violation until caught by the defense. There are at least 9 defensive players. Not my job to worry about what morals the offense is playing by.

Also, why is anyone surprised at what some rats will do? Why is anyone disgusted by it?

Edited March 24, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[Dragon29]

Mr Umpire - First, I didn't use the word, 'morality', you did. For me, morals is something completely outside of baseball; I also didn't use the word, 'cheating', others did - but let's leave off the semantic argument.

You say "No violation until caught by the defense" That is patently incorrect.

It is, by definition, an illegal action, therefore a violation. We can see that by the fact that when the defense properly appeals said action, we are instructed to call the runner 'Out.' So, I think we can all agree that it is an illegal action on the field. Not immediately punishable, but still illegal. (Kind of like speeding in a car - it's illegal, but unless there's someone around to catch you, there's no punishment)

Teaching 12U players to execute illegal actions on the field is not in keeping with the spirit espoused by every youth baseball organization I have ever heard of. We can debate the morality, or lack thereof, separately from this issue.

[Mr Umpire]

Mr Umpire - First, I didn't use the word, 'morality', you did. For me, morals is something completely outside of baseball; I also didn't use the word, 'cheating', others did - but let's leave off the semantic argument.

You say "No violation until caught by the defense" That is patently incorrect.

It is, by definition, an illegal action, therefore a violation. We can see that by the fact that when the defense properly appeals said action, we are instructed to call the runner 'Out.' So, I think we can all agree that it is an illegal action on the field. Not immediately punishable, but still illegal. (Kind of like speeding in a car - it's illegal, but unless there's someone around to catch you, there's no punishment)

Teaching 12U players to execute illegal actions on the field is not in keeping with the spirit espoused by every youth baseball organization I have ever heard of. We can debate the morality, or lack thereof, separately from this issue.

Didn't say you did. It's the attitude expressed in this thread by posters which makes it apparent.

Illegal with/without an immediate punishment and "circumventing" a rule are 2 different things in baseball. It is semantics but they are different. By the rules of baseball, a runner is allowed to cut across from 1B to 3B. Completely within the rules of baseball b/c there is no rule preventing it. And, many interpretations allow for it. The umpire can watch it and do nothing. That is not "circumventing" a rule.

"Circumventing" a rule would be something like acting that the fielder caught a fly ball to deceive the umpire when he didn't. That is "circumventing" a rule b/c the fielder is required to catch the ball before it touches the ground. It is one thing to deceive the other team within the rules. It is another to deceive the officials outside of the rules.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[BrianC14]

Mr Umpire - First, I didn't use the word, 'morality', you did. For me, morals is something completely outside of baseball; I also didn't use the word, 'cheating', others did - but let's leave off the semantic argument.

You say "No violation until caught by the defense" That is patently incorrect.

It is, by definition, an illegal action, therefore a violation. We can see that by the fact that when the defense properly appeals said action, we are instructed to call the runner 'Out.' So, I think we can all agree that it is an illegal action on the field. Not immediately punishable, but still illegal. (Kind of like speeding in a car - it's illegal, but unless there's someone around to catch you, there's no punishment)

Teaching 12U players to execute illegal actions on the field is not in keeping with the spirit espoused by every youth baseball organization I have ever heard of. We can debate the morality, or lack thereof, separately from this issue.

Excellent post.

Excellent!

Sadly, some will refuse to 'get it'. :no:

[Mr Umpire]

Excellent post.

Excellent!

Sadly, some will refuse to 'get it'.

Funny how changing topics within a thread is now acceptable since you changed it.

And, the point is irrelevant within the confines of baseball. That kind of stuff is not for any umpire to be concerned about. Coach the team if that becomes a concern. The rules are to be called as they are with no regard to the age level.

Oh, and we 'get it' FYI. That is completely useless info and not relevant to any discussion of umpiring. Do not care what a coach is teaching his players as long as it is within the rules and not a safety issue. And, this coach did keep it within the rules.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[BrianC14]

Funnier still (in a sad way) how guilty minds jump right to their own defense, even when they weren't specifically mentioned.

:spit:

[kcfan102]

Brandon,

That would be a gross misapplication of two rules.

As I am sure you know, the only way to declare a runner as out of the baseline would be if a defensive player attempted to make a play on them. Furthermore, this is not abandonment. To abandon, a runner must head either to their dugout or to their defensive position.

Regarding your number 2, he is not running the bases in reverse order. Therefore, that rule does not apply either.

No rule does. You must simply sit back and shake your head, saying nothing unless the defense appeals.

Respectfully disagree.

The runner's next base is second. In my interpretation of the rule, he is "obviously abandoning his effort to touch t he next base." The next base would be second, if he goes to third, he obviously isn't going to second

He's out on my field.

I don't mean to cause a ruckus, but that's the way I read it.