Running Start?

[moblue]

Cal Ripken 9 yr. old District Tourney. OBR

At this level, the players were not allowed to leave the base until the ball had reached home plate. There was one player that had a very unusual leadoff technique which I wondered if it was considered a "running start" or not. What he would do is put one foot behind the bag (in foul territory on 1B) and would start moving it forward as soon as the ball left the pitcher's hand. This usually resulted in him leaving the bag right as the ball reached home plate. Since I had to watch for multiple runners leaving early, as well as know when the ball reached home, I used peripheral vision to watch for movement. He threw me off several times, and I believe I called him for leaving the bag early more than once. It was a pain to have to deal with.

I'm wondering if his "technique" for leading off was legal. I never said anything during the tournament because I had no rule I could think of that he was actually violating. I don't think it classifies as a running start, but maybe it does. If I didn't describe how he was leading off well enough, think about how softball players start out when they run the bases, with one foot behind the bag, moving on the release.

[mstaylor]

You explained it correctly and I believe it is illegal in closed base baseball. It is legal in softball. I will look in my LL stuff and see what I can find. Maybe somebody that does CR will have a better idea.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

If you are playing OBR, I would think that this is legal.

The player is in constant contact with the base and therefore not getting a running start.

IMHO, a running start would have him start behind the bag, not in contact with it and time his contact with the bag to coincide with either a catch or in this case the ball crossing the plate. So as long as he starts with one foot in contact with the bag and a quick check over would show that all is good.

[moblue]

Great, one yes and one no. lol. I don't think that CR specifies exactly how they have to leadoff. If LL does, I would most likely defer to their ruling to fill in the gap.

At one point I thought it was illegal because he was starting in foul territory, then remembered how R3 will usually take his leadoff on that side of the line in upper levels.

[BrianC14]

If he stays in contact with the base, there's nothing illegal about it.

A 'running start' is just that - a runner leaves contact with the base - and this is usually down the 3B line on a tag-up, and gets a running start toward home, touching the base at or after the first touch of a fly ball. A running start is illegal (as I've described here) is illegal in all codes.

But as described in the OP, there's nothing illegal about what this runner is doing.

[Mr Umpire]

Unless a specific rule says otherwise, I would defer to it being legal. My reason is because the runner doesn't have to be in fair territory, only fielders. Also, all examples I have ever seen or heard of have the runner starting from behind the base and completely off the base. Since he is still in contact the entire time, there isn't a running start being gained.

I think of it this way: What if his foot was in line the the foul side edge of the base? Wouldn't that be the same, only his foot is farther in the OP?

So, unless there is something in writing, I would leave it alone.

[kylejt]

Not only is it legal in LL, it works really well. I saw in done in college softball years ago, and brought it to my LL team. It gives you a full step advantage to second base. That's HUGE. You just launch yourself when the ball is 15 feet from the dish.so your front foot is still in contact when the ball reaches the batter. It works really well.

When coaching third, I always made a point to talk to the closest base umpire, and tell him about our technique.

[BrianC14]

Not only is it legal in LL, it works really well. I saw in done in college softball years ago, and brought it to my LL team. It gives you a full step advantage to second base. That's HUGE. You just launch yourself when the ball is 15 feet from the dish.so your front foot is still in contact when the ball reaches the batter. It works really well.

When coaching third, I always made a point to talk to the closest base umpire, and tell him about our technique.

In LL, the pitch has to be past the batter, isn't that correct? If that's the case, then the timing of this method had better be very good, otherwise, here comes that red flag.

[mstaylor]

The timing better be good and my benefit of the doubt is going to the defense. In other words, if I'm not sure then he is going back.

[BrianC14]

The timing better be good and my benefit of the doubt is going to the defense. In other words, if I'm not sure then he is going back.

I agree w/ Mike. You're going to be either B or C in this situation, and having eyes where your ears are isn't possible... that bit about "launching yourself when the ball is 15 feet away"... that's going to be interesting, I think.

Then again, this stuff is one of the many reasons I don't miss LL.

[carolinablue]

I know it's necessary with the 60' bases, but I absolutley hate that rule. Almost impossible to call correctly unless it's an gross infraction. If you have multiple runners it is impossible unless you have super human perifheral vision. I don't really understand why it's " when the ball reaches the batter." It would be a lot easier if they would say " when the ball reaches the catcher." And if someone hits the ball while a runner leaves early you can really have some fun then.

I know Micheal said if it was close he gave the benefit of doubt to the defense. I have always not called it unless I was sure. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

Edited December 13, 2009 by carolinablue

[moblue]

What I really hate about it is that there are times when no one notices but me it seems, but after I send that first runner back for the infraction BOTH teams watch for it.

[mstaylor]

I know it's necessary with the 60' bases, but I absolutley hate that rule. Almost impossible to call correctly unless it's an gross infraction. If you have multiple runners it is impossible unless you have super human perifheral vision. I don't really understand why it's " when the ball reaches the batter." It would be a lot easier if they would say " when the ball reaches the catcher." And if someone hits the ball while a runner leaves early you can really have some fun then.

I know Micheal said if it was close he gave the benefit of doubt to the defense. I have always not called it unless I was sure. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

No, you are looking at correctly, give the runner the benefit of the doubt in most cases. When you have a team that is consitantly leaving early, or in this case trying to circuvent the rule, then the benefit switches to the defense. If you call it a couple of times and they continue to leave early, dump the coach for unsporting behavior. He is coaching little kids to cheat and that is not acceptable. Coaching them to be agressive is fine but cheating is not.

[carolinablue]

I try to avoid solo games but I have done a few on the small diamond, or have a partner not show or a schedule screw up. I love it when your behind the dish working solo and the coach says, " Hey blue, watch the runner he is leaving early." I want to say " sure coach, I'll disregard this next pitch and focus on the runner." But you know I don't.

[mstaylor]

This why I marvel at leagues that do 60ft as one man regularly. Sure you can get out and watch most of the base action but you can not watch leaving early. Many times teams have never a 7.13 violation called until play-offs.

Edited December 14, 2009 by mstaylor

[carolinablue]

I may be wrong about this, but in that situation I will mention it at the plate meeting and tell the coaches it's a matter of sportsmanship. Of course that don't always solve the problem. I wonder if I should say nothing as I may be tipping of a rat coach that he can take advantage of the situation.

[kylejt]

Funny, I see runners leaving early on first and second when working solo fairly easily. And no, I don't drop a flag out of my ball bag. I just enforce 7.13 when the play stops.

Look, it's pretty easy to call. You're just looking for a runner getting an advantage. Most times it happens when a batter squares to bunt, or a first and third situation.

7.13 is the best, and probably the most complicated rule in organized ball. What other rule lets you make runners disappear, or reappear, at the drop of a flag.

[Ump29]

I know it's necessary with the 60' bases, but I absolutley hate that rule. Almost impossible to call correctly unless it's an gross infraction. If you have multiple runners it is impossible unless you have super human perifheral vision. I don't really understand why it's " when the ball reaches the batter." It would be a lot easier if they would say " when the ball reaches the catcher." And if someone hits the ball while a runner leaves early you can really have some fun then.

I know Micheal said if it was close he gave the benefit of doubt to the defense. I have always not called it unless I was sure. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

I do not do LL here. In LL do the base umpires position inside or outside the base lines. In Baseball Canada areas the equiv of LL is Mosquito Division. This has 60 ft bases and no lead offs. The base umpires (with runners on) position outside the lines so as to be able to see any infractions. In C (outside) you can see all three bases no problem.

[kylejt]

I do not do LL here. In LL do the base umpires position inside or outside the base lines.

Outside the diamond.

[BT_Blue]

Funny, I see runners leaving early on first and second when working solo fairly easily. And no, I don't drop a flag out of my ball bag. I just enforce 7.13 when the play stops.

Look, it's pretty easy to call. You're just looking for a runner getting an advantage. Most times it happens when a batter squares to bunt, or a first and third situation.

7.13 is the best, and probably the most complicated rule in organized ball. What other rule lets you make runners disappear, or reappear, at the drop of a flag.

The NCAA DH rule would give it a pretty good run for its money. However I am not familiar with the nuances of 7.13 so I will just have to take your word for it.

[carolinablue]

Kyle, not doubting your ability but I can't see how a PU can see a runner leave early and track a pitch properly. If they are off really early ( like stealing on a 90' diamond ), I can see it, espescially at 2B, but if it's one of those deals where the pitch is half way or more there, I don't see how. You may have a really exceptional abillity, if so my hats off.

[willv28]

I think I know what the OP is referring too. I see it a lot in softball. In that one say with R3. They will stand to the side of the bag (foul side) with their foot up against the base and almost get into a sprinter stance to start going. But maybe it's a little different.

7.13 is fun. You know it's an interesting rule when you are in bases loaded and a runner leaves early and the batted ball doesn't leave the infield and the player that was R3 is removed from the bases and no run scores.

[kylejt]

The NCAA DH rule would give it a pretty good run for its money. However I am not familiar with the nuances of 7.13 so I will just have to take your word for it.

Well, it takes up a page and a half in the rule book, and makes coaches go absolutely insane when enforced properly. It takes runs off the board, and puts runners back on base. It can turn a bases loaded triple into a bases loaded out.

I mean, how much more fun could you ask for?

As for seeing runners leave early when I'm the PU, it's a blessing and a curse.

[carolinablue]

Once I had a R2 and R3 situation. The batter hit a clean single to right and both runs scored. Here comes my partner who happened to be a junior umpire with that look on his face like " your gonna love this one ." He told me R2 left early. Fortunately I had just read over the rule the night before, so I'm like both runners need to go back to the base they occupied before the single. That's an automatic five minute delay. Even the league officials in the booth were giving me the WTF look. At least I didn't have to run anyone.

[MCLEOD36]

lol...what if he did leave early? Just tell the jr guy, listen. If you come at me again like that WE BOTH WILL NOT be leaving early..... Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays one and all......even the Canadians and guys from Colorado.... John