BrianC14

It's at this point that the option is to be made - or offered, in the case of NCAA and FED. What manager is going to refuse two runs?

No runs have legally scored? How do you figure that? You can't just nullify the play at your leisure - and by rule, you have to let the play continue to its end - and in this case, R2 and R3 have legally scored - - otherwise, the only way to stop this is to kill the play, and that's not the correct way to apply the rule.

Oh, - now you're talking PROTESTS! They aren't allowed in my state. :)

The only way to do that is to kill the play just as (or just after) the batter has hit the fly ball, and doing that is the incorrect way to handle this.

re: the Prozac option. Yep - there's no clean end of the stick on this one - it's either going to be the DC or the OC ejecting himself. So go for the coach that appears to have taken his meds. :clap:

JM, to add further: I disagree that this is going to be my fault. I can only explain what the rules state about CI penalty, and about the results of the play as it happened. As I said, the defense hasn't yet made their appeal - if I start including that aspect into it, then I'm starting to add in information where I should not be, because I don't know (only the defense knows) if they realize there's an appeal that could be made. That's part of the rules, too, as you of course know - if that information is discussed, then I could be tipping off the defense to the possibility of an appeal.

Yep, I'm with you on that. Although the OC can vent his spleen all he wants with respect to the explanations, but even I wouldn't have known there'd be an appeal (OK, I'd know that the defense COULD make an appeal based on what I'd seen, but I wouldn't know if they'd realize it at that point). That part is out of my hands at the time the explanations of the options is being handled, and also at the time OC makes his choice. But with regard to the fact that R3 left early, most coaches that are paying attention would be aware of that - in fact, in our high schools, the head coach is usually the one at 3B anyway, so if anyone should know or even suspect that R3 left early, it would be him. If he's unaware of that, well that isn't my problem. And if his argument gets out of hand, following the upheld appeal, then he's going to "eject himself", as they say. Yes, it would suck, but altering the play/appeal at that point would be giving the offense the advantage for a mistake that they made. Oh well. By the way, don't quit on the role playing routine - that's been the best part of this thread! I'm going to have to ask some of our association's Big Dogs if they would offer to explain the options... it's going to be interesting to hear their responses... :smachhead:

Found it, JM, thanks for the reference. Yeah, that's a suggestion, to be sure. I suppose if I had some lower-level of ball, I'd take it under consideration. Now - let me play devil's advocate: If I were to explain both options, Coach A is certainly going to want the one (I would think) where he has his team scoring R2 and R3. So, he makes that choice, and for the moment, he's happy. Now, as all this is going on, the ball is dead. We haven't had any reason to put the ball back into play, as we're still sorting out the CI vs. the results of the play. HOWEVER, the defense isn't likely to make their appeal until the ball is put back into play. Once they see that R3 is now allowed to score, THEN they will make their appeal - and it's an appeal that, if upheld, is going to erase those runs. See where this goes.... ? OC is still going to be an unhappy camper; and I cannot see that allowing him (after the appeal is upheld) to change his option, because then you're going to have DC come unglued, and rightly so, in my opinion.

JM: On page 118 of the J/R manual, it states: (emphasis mine) Where do you read that the options are offered / explained?

I've never understood why softball umpires have their base umpire use an indicator. Between that and the guy who uses a brush to clean off the pitcher's plate, there are few things that look so.... well, "Smitty".

Oh, respond to the coach? OK... Me: Go sit yer arse down, you foul-mouthed arrogant jerk! Nah, just kidding. I'm not going to OFFER a choice to the coach, and that's by rule/interp. If he wants the CI, I give it. If we give him CI, then R2 and R3 are back at their TOP bases. If he elects the play (and by the way, he only gets ONE choice) then upon proper appeal, R3 is going to be out. Then we're probably going to hear from 'Coach John' again. And who knows, maybe he'll be "out" as well. :smachhead:

Go-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o PACKERS! :smachhead:

Sorry, JM - I've been editing my response... As above, if 'John' wants the CI enforced, R2 and R3 are returning to their TOP bases.

Me: "I'll put your batter at first base if you want me to enforce the catcher's interference". My reasoning: So if 'John' insists upon the CI, then R2 and R3 are going back to their TOP bases. No doubt that "John" is going to have some heartburn when he realizes he took a run off the board, but as an umpire, I cannot advise him of the cost/benefit of either of the choices. In the end, we as umpires know that the CI was his best choice. If he chooses the results of the play, then we're going to have an out for R3 leaving early.

Well the simple answer is that he already made his choice, and CI wasn't it. :cheers:

Same here. I'd include a photo attachment for the sheer joy of it, though. :clap:

To me it would tough to see (and thus call) that his foot is out upon contact with the ball - and of course, in the sitch, F2 creates the interference... that certainly would have occurred before contact with the ball. Thus, I have CI.

Send him to first, CI.

But JM, that's just the problem here - you haven't allowed him to correct his infraction (based on the 'gross miss') and there is no 'official interpretation' ! So a coach that knows the rule book (few though they may be) is going to want to know why his R1 cannot have corrected his mistake the last time by...

OK, then I understand the sitch. But when the offensive coach comes calling for what is sure to be a big-time sh*t storm, can I ask how would you suggest explaining this out? (and let me just say here that I think I know how I would explain it, I'm looking for some safety in numbers, if you will).

Yes, I would have to say that does make sense. HOWEVER... are you saying in the first instance, that you would call R1 out if he, as you say: "cuts across the grass to get back to first, missing 2B, touches first and then proceeds to 2B and 3B on the overthrow". So you would still allow an appeal at 2B, and subsequently call him out? Do I have that correct?

A Wilson WV Gold or Platinum. I use the Platinum. I especially like the thick pad at the throat, and the way the collar bone and shoulders get covered.

Thanks for the opportunity, Warren! :shrug:

I've got to admit that I'm still scratching my head (and with my lack of hair I can ill afford much of that ) over the implied connection of "last time by" and "gross miss". Am I correct in this: Are some of you saying that you would not allow someone to correct the missed touch of a base if they were (with intent) purposefully cutting off a corner (as one example)?? :shrug:

John, in my neck of the woods, we use the MLB style of powder blue - that is, the light blue shirt with the black collar; out here, the powder blue with matching collar is considered a softball shirt, although every now & then I see a few guys wearing the one w/ the light blue collar. I'd recommend the MLB powder blue w/ the black collar. There are some guys out here (very few) that wear the cream jersey, but it's pretty rare to see it. I'd also recommend a black jersey; lots of associations wear those, and our HS association has told us we may all be wearing them in a year or two.