Out at first

[slingshot]

Last night had a sitch where I was in A ground ball to F3, F3 & F1 end up at the same place for the ball. F1 comes up with the ball and crawls to the bag, has the ball in his bare hand touches the bag with the ball two steps ahead of BR, I got an out. After three outs my partner says I missed it this is not an out, says there is no way F1 had control of the ball with his hand on top of it. Says it is in the book but no to my rookie knowledge, can someone help with this, did I get it right or blow it.

I think before I call safe on this I need some ammo for an angre coach.

Thanks

[Umpire in Chief]

If F1 touched the bag with the ball in his hand, it's an out.

BTW welcome to the site.

[Stan W.]

first off welcome to the site...

agree without a doubt with UIC.....

He controlled the ball enough to field it...crawl to the bag then touch the bag with the ball...........??...that is an out....not sure what you pard was thinking...might want to ask him next time....

[Mr Umpire]

It's an out.

OBR 2.00

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.

The PERSON of a player or an umpire is any part of his body, his clothing or his equipment.

TOUCH. To touch a player or umpire is to touch any part of his body, his clothing or his equipment.

1.17 Playing equipment including but not limited to the bases, pitcher’s plate, baseball, bats, uniforms, catcher’s mitts, first baseman’s gloves, infielders and outfielders gloves and protective helmets, as detailed in the provisions of this rule, shall not contain any undue commercialization of the product. Designations by the manufacturer on any such equipment must be in good taste as to the size and content of the manufacturer’s logo or the brand name of the item. The provisions of this Section 1.17 shall apply to professional leagues only.

This is an error in the OBR. It defines touch and then uses it in a sentence with his body. The next closest thing to defining a player's body is person. And, while he has the ball in his hand, it is considered to be his equipment until he releases it.

You were right to call him out. Your partner is wrong. As long as he has possession of the ball and is touching the base for a force out, it doesn't matter what he is touching it with as long as it is within these prescribed definition.

Think of it this way. Are you going to call him safe if the player touches the base with is shoe? After all, it isn't his body. No. The out will be recorded and should be if he touches the base with the ball.

[Ump Rube]

After three outs my partner says I missed it this is not an out, says there is no way F1 had control of the ball with his hand on top of it.

I think your partner is confusing a catch/trap with control in regards to a tag. And if he/she isn't then I don't know what they are thinking.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Ump Rube
A :WTF seemed to harsh at the end.

[BrianC14]

Last night had a sitch where I was in A ground ball to F3, F3 & F1 end up at the same place for the ball. F1 comes up with the ball and crawls to the bag, has the ball in his bare hand touches the bag with the ball two steps ahead of BR, I got an out. After three outs my partner says I missed it this is not an out, says there is no way F1 had control of the ball with his hand on top of it. Says it is in the book but no to my rookie knowledge, can someone help with this, did I get it right or blow it.

I think before I call safe on this I need some ammo for an angre coach.

Thanks

As stated already, this is an out.

Now, you're not going to come back here with an "Oh, by the way, F1 dropped it as he touched the bag and it rolled away" are you?

As long as the fielder (F1, in this case) held the ball securely and touched the bag with it, it's an out.

[Mr Umpire]

As stated already, this is an out.

Now, you're not going to come back here with an "Oh, by the way, F1 dropped it as he touched the bag and it rolled away" are you?

As long as the fielder (F1, in this case) held the ball securely and touched the bag with it, it's an out.

No doubt. Another poster did something like that to me. He said F2 was going after a throw up the baseline and there was contact. I had OBS until he then posted F2 caught the throw and was turning around to make the tag when contact occurred.:BD:

[slingshot]

BrianC14, no I know better than that one, the fact is this was an 11-12 yr old game and F1 was even good enough to raise the ball off the bag after the tag and show it to me. My partner said with your hand on top of the ball like that there was no contro ie catch/trap but that was not the case I was impressed by him showing me the ball. I ask my partner if you have bases loaded and BR bunts and the ball has back spin that puts it on home plate are you not going to call the force out when F2 picks up the ball, he said no, imo you have to have control to pick it up.

I enjoy the site for this reason there is always something to learn.

Thanks for the help from all.

[daled]

Welcome aboard. As you described the situation I would say great call. Yes that is an out. How exactly did your partner explain his stance on this? I can not understand any logical argument he could have had for his statement "you missed that one".:angel4:

[Umpire in Chief]

This can be a big problem for those just beginning to umpire and is such a shame because it may cause some good ones to leave.

A "veteran" umpire makes a statement like this and too many times the rookie goes along for the ride. Some time later the excrement hits the rotary device when the rookie regurgitates the bad gouge he was given and gets burned.

The rookie is now pissed and wants to quit.

Remember tenure can have little to no bearing to how good an umpire is or will be. I've worked with more senior guys who I feel I am better than, but I've also worked with some less experienced guys who have taught me some things.

[therefump]

This can be a big problem for those just beginning to umpire and is such a shame because it may cause some good ones to leave.

A "veteran" umpire makes a statement like this and too many times the rookie goes along for the ride. Some time later the excrement hits the rotary device when the rookie regurgitates the bad gouge he was given and gets burned.

The rookie is now pissed and wants to quit.

Remember tenure can have little to no bearing to how good an umpire is or will be. I've worked with more senior guys who I feel I am better than, but I've also worked with some less experienced guys who have taught me some things.

Good comment about senority Warren. We're not all blessed with a perfect understanding of the rules and there is always something new we can learn. Those who say they know it all frighten me. Newbees can sometimes see things that we look around if you get my drift.

[jjb]

He's either thinking trap (which is your judgement, not his), or he's vocalizing through an alternative orifice. Good call.

[BrianC14]

This can be a big problem for those just beginning to umpire and is such a shame because it may cause some good ones to leave.

A "veteran" umpire makes a statement like this and too many times the rookie goes along for the ride. Some time later the excrement hits the rotary device when the rookie regurgitates the bad gouge he was given and gets burned.

The rookie is now pissed and wants to quit.

Remember tenure can have little to no bearing to how good an umpire is or will be. I've worked with more senior guys who I feel I am better than, but I've also worked with some less experienced guys who have taught me some things.

In the words of Jim Evans:

"Do you have 20 years experience, or 1 year of experience 20 times?" :angel4:

[mstaylor]

I agree that length of service has nothing to do with rules knowledge. I know guys that have been umpiring for 20 to 30 yrs that don't seem to have much better knowledge than the coaches. There are other guys that have only been doing a few years that are very good.

I was a member of the former for a number of years until I got i a group that was serious about training. I also found the internet and really became a student of the rules. I don't have all the answers but I do OK. I am well known in my area for knowing my craft, there guys that are better mechanics guys, translate younger, but not many with my rules knowledge. I'm not bragging, I am saying that with excellent training through my assoc and to the pro clinics we have attended, plus the exposure to many good guys on the internet, I have come far. I now take as much pleasure in teaching others what I have gained from the yrs of study.

Good call in your sitch, it is important to learn who in your area that knows his business and isn't going to give you bad information like the partner in this situation.

[Dano]

Says it is in the book but no to my rookie knowledge, can someone help with this, did I get it right or blow it.

Ask him to bring the book and show you.

[digo21]

No doubt. Another poster did something like that to me. He said F2 was going after a throw up the baseline and there was contact. I had OBS until he then posted F2 caught the throw and was turning around to make the tag when contact occurred.

HAHA I wonder who did that?:shrug:

[Mr Umpire]

HAHA I wonder who did that?

No problem. At least you know how to handle it either way now. Next round is on you though. :tantrum: