Missed first base mechanics

[noumpere]

It may be oversimplifying, but BR overruns 1B without touching it, immediately followed by F3 receiving the throw and touching the bag before BR returns = first base being tagged before BR touches 1B = OUT.

It *is* over-simplifying it. The rule assumes the "normal" case of "the throw beating the runner" -- what we see 99.99% of the time. It's not meant to be used when the runner beats the throw.

The rules book contains 234 (or some such number) of errors, inconsistencies, contradictions, etc. This is one of them.

[Umpire in Chief]

The rules book contains 234 (or some such number) of errors, inconsistencies, contradictions, etc. This is one of them.

If they ever fixed these errors sites like this would probably go away. :WTF

[Dano]

Here's one we've been chewing over the last few meetings. High school baseball

Batter hits the ball to F6, F6 bobbles the ball which creates a close play at first. The BR passes first base before the ball gets there but does not touch the bag. The ball get there shortly after and the F3 touches the bag. What are the BU mechanics? Does he /she call safe or out because the runner never touched the bag, is it a no call??? Half of the crew says you call safe and wait for a defensive appeal, some say you call out because he never touched the bag. What are your thoughts?

T

IF F3 was off the bag to get the throw and then touched the bag after receiving the throw, under NFHS rules this is an out.

By F3 touching the bag he is making the appeal.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Dano

[mstaylor]

Not if it isn't an unmistakable appeal. Fed got rid of the accidental appeal the second year they instituted the defensive appeal requirement.

[Mr Umpire]

Dano,

I think you are barking up the wrong tree with this one. From what I understand, and it has been discussed before, Fed does not allow accidental appeals anymore with the exception of SC(I believe b/c I know SC is an exception for something in Fed rules).

It has to be a proper, formal appeal using mechanics allowed by the governing rule set.

[Dano]

Not if it isn't an unmistakable appeal. Fed got rid of the accidental appeal the second year they instituted the defensive appeal requirement.

Then take it out of the freaking CASE BOOK already.

:nod:

[Umpire in Chief]

From what I understand, SC has the automatic appeal. If the umpire sees it he can get the out with out appeal.

[willv28]

Ok, that makes sense. At what point would he be considered passed the bag? When his leading foot touches the ground after the bag?

I also assume with 2 out and with a successful appeal, no runs would score.

This is one I might have difficulty selling, simplicity is big around here, they're not used to anything else.

[mstaylor]

He is passed when the trail foot passes the back edge of the bag. In other words, he has to be completely passed the base.

I know I'm stupid but I'm not coming up with SC.

[Umpire in Chief]

South Carolina

[mstaylor]

South Carolina, gotcha, you are correct, they still use the violation called by the umpire. I always hated that rule.

[Jboval]

I am late to this game, but I have to say I hate this interpretation of missed base and the call.

I mean the rule book says the B/R has to "touch" the bag before the fielder with possession of the ball does. This has to be one of the most blatant instances of ignoring the rule book I have ever seen.

What about not making a call that puts the BR at a disadvantage? By calling him safe you give him the impression that he is safe, and that he does not have to hustle to get back to the bag on an overrun at first. I mean I can understand calling the play as it happens at a bag other than the one he missed, but I think if the play is at the bag in question, you have to call it as it truly happens. I can understand the 'assumption' of legally taking a base when passing it, even when you don't touch it. But I think that should only be done when the play on the runner is made at a following bag.

Also, I have seen no where that any interpretation says "the BR must be completely past the bag to be considered safe, when missing the bag" Can someone tell me where that is? Or is that just a personal opinion?

And correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't it say that in case of the play at home plate, they umpire is 'encouraged' to make a no call if the plate is not touched? I mean, can they make this a little more vague?

What I don't like is the idea of someone opening a rule book after I call this play, and then can't find it anywhere. If that's the rule, then why the hell don't they list it in the comments or rules somewhere, instead of in the interpretations manual? As far as LL, I am not going to call it this way, I am going by the rules listed in their book.

I have been umpiring for 23 yrs, I have never had this situation, nor do I expect to, but man this sounds like one big cluster! They take the simplest rule in the book "you touch the base before the guy with the ball does, and your safe, if not, your out" and they make a mockery of it! WTF?

[therefump]

OBR 7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when—

© He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

Once the runner passes the base it's his (we all agree?) The defense must appeal the miss of the base. So the play would go like this.

F6 to F3, the BR beats the throw but doesn't touch the base. Ball Caught by F3.

Umpire: Safe.

F3: Blue, he didn't touch the bag (saying this while standing on the bag with the ball in his hand or touching the BR while he is off the base.)

Umpire: Runner is out on appeal or he's out! (SELL, SELL, SELL)

Of course, at this point the OC is coming out to ask you what just happened.

I've been really bothered by this thread. I initially responded but was told I was wrong (not complaining, just commenting). I really liked jboval's response. In addition, I have talked with several umpires in my chapter and we all say the same thing: No call until tagged or a fielder touches base before runner returns. No appeal unless he's run to second w/o touching first.

Two things hi-lighted in quote above:

#1 7.10© it describes a "live ball" appeal. That's not possible in the OBR.

#2 "Once the runner passes....." This is the heart of my disagreement.

Bottom line, once again: no call until the following occurs:

1) runner goes back to base and touches it (safe, by default)

2) Fielder touches base before runner returns (called OUT by umpire)

I've done all my umpiring in Pennsylvania. I have NEVER EVER seen an appeal play to first base on a batter/runner overruning first. That's 28+ years umpiring plus countless other games played or watched. I'm pointing out from my experience only to show that I've never seen it.

Please give me DETAILS from any situation in the Pros (including Minor League ball). Let's keep FED rules out of this for now.

[crazyaboutcoues]

I agree with Jboval...your just asking for an ass chewing by calling him out after an appeal is made:BD:. The coaches are going to want to know why you just didn't call him out in the first place for not touching the bag, then trying to explain the rule which is vague and nowhere clearly defined. Does anyone have any pull with the committe that revises rules every few years?

[Mr Umpire]

#1 7.10© it describes a "live ball" appeal. That's not possible in the OBR.

Why is a "live ball" appeal not possible in OBR? It happens all the time. Such as an appeal of a BR missing 1B while he is on 2B and the ball is still live. Isn't that what a tag up appeal is as well?

And, 7.10© defines the whole purpose of calling the runner safe after he has passed the base. Do your normal mechanics to not tip the offense or defense that something has changed.

To me, this is a simple concept. I have been doing this for 18 years now and have always heard the mechanics as being this way. Also, the 2007 MLBUM and PBUC manual describes the mechanics exactly as been described.

Signal the runner safe if he beats the throw. Then, the defense tags him or the base upon appeal. If there is no play or he is obviously beyond the base when the ball is caught, then signal nothing.

Same for HP. Normal signal is to not call anything to tip the defense or offense of the play. Only call safe or out on the play but that is it. If no play, then do nothing to show if the runner missed.

The main reason for these mechanics is to not tip the offense or defense that something is wrong. It is up to them to figure it out. Simply catching the ball at 1B after the runner has passed during the play does not constitute an appeal. This is why the runner is not called out if he is already passed the base. Accidental appeals are not allowed.

No one will get confused if the player says "Blue, batter missed 1B" while the player is standing on 1B. They will get confused if the batter is 3 feet beyond the base when the player catches the ball and then the umpire calls "Out". Now, imagine the trouble caused and the confusion everyone will have. This makes for a confusing play. Requiring an appeal clears everything up as to why the batter is now out even when he was halfway to the outfield fence when the player got the ball(exaggeration).

Edited May 13, 2009 by Mr Umpire

[noumpere]

I think I saw this on another umpire site, but I'll type it here:

PBUC 2009 Updates:

8. New Item 11 for Section 3.4 - Appeal Plays - Approved Rulings - Batter runner missing first base- "BR hits a ground ball and beats the play at first base but misses the bag. Ruling: The proper mechanic if to call the BR "Safe," indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base before the runner returns to first base, the BR would be declared out. Note also OBR 7.08(k) Casebook Comment and Section 3.3."

[moblue]

My area seems to have a commonly accepted practice in HS (FED rules I know, but I don't see a difference with OBR in mechanics) of not making any call if the runner overruns first. Once I was watching the game when it happened. The no call tipped off both teams and the runner was tagged out.

The other time I was BU and the BR missed 1st. I did a no call on the play as F3 had to jump to catch the ball, and did not come down on the bag. Again, the no call tipped the teams off, but the runner made it back in time. DC wanted to know why I didn't make a call. I explained that when the runner misses the base but beats the throw, it's a no call. His fielder didn't land on the bag when he came down from his jump, so the BR was safe. He agreed with me and the game went on.

Edit: Before anyone says anything about "well the MLBUM or PBUC says..." I'm just saying what seems the accepted practice where I'm at. Does that make it correct? Maybe not, but why stir the pot?

Edited May 13, 2009 by moblue

[Mr Umpire]

My area seems to have a commonly accepted practice in HS (FED rules I know, but I don't see a difference with OBR in mechanics) of not making any call if the runner overruns first. Once I was watching the game when it happened. The no call tipped off both teams and the runner was tagged out.

The other time I was BU and the BR missed 1st. I did a no call on the play as F3 had to jump to catch the ball, and did not come down on the bag. Again, the no call tipped the teams off, but the runner made it back in time. DC wanted to know why I didn't make a call. I explained that when the runner misses the base but beats the throw, it's a no call. His fielder didn't land on the bag when he came down from his jump, so the BR was safe. He agreed with me and the game went on.

Edit: Before anyone says anything about "well the MLBUM or PBUC says..." I'm just saying what seems the accepted practice where I'm at. Does that make it correct? Maybe not, but why stir the pot?

Well, the MLBUM or PBUC says...

It may not be so accepted if the DC is questioning it and it tips off the teams as to say something wasn't right about that play. Which is why a safe signal is given as if it were a normal play and then let the defense figure it out. Tipping off one or both teams is what we are supposed to NOT do.

[Ump Rube]

No one will get confused if the player says "Blue, batter missed 1B" while the player is standing on 1B.

Do you then, advise the defense to complete the appeal? What would the mechanics be at that point?

They will get confused if the batter is 3 feet beyond the base when the player catches the ball and then the umpire calls "Out". Now, imagine the trouble caused and the confusion everyone will have. This makes for a confusing play.

I understand, and agree the mechanics are correct, but I personally feel that making the out call would be a lot easier to defend:

U1: Out

OC: What do you mean out, he beat the throw.

U1: Yes, but he missed the base.

OC: Oh, ok then Mr. Umpire sir. I am sure sorry that I ever doubted you. You were in perfect position to see the play, and I know you spend hours studying the rules everyday. I should never have said anything. Should I leave now?

U1: No that's OK, we all make mistakes.

OC: I have never seen you make a.... (on and on)

[Jboval]

Mr. Umpire. That is a very good explanation. However, the 2009 MLB Procedures and Interpretations Manual Section 5.3 states that "..it is preferable that the umpire make no signal on the play." I mean c'mon! It is preferable? So you can call him safe if you want, but we prefer you call nothing? Anyone else find this idiotic?

I understand your viewpoint of why the call is made, and that it is to make sure that neither side is tipped off that something is wrong. Again, HE DID NOT TOUCH THE BASE BEFORE THE FIELDER TOUCHED IT WITH THE BALL IN HIS POSSESSION. There is nothing wrong. I cannot get to the place where I agree that the call should be in COMPLETE contradiction to one of the fundamental rules of baseball.

As far as the offense getting confused as to why you called him out after he beat the throw to the bag, but was called out - "Coach, he never touched the bag" Done. I see a lot less confusion and arguing over that explanation than the other way around.

Again, missing a base during a multiple base hit, and then arriving at another safely and being called safe, I understand fully. They didn't see him miss the base and appeal it, then he is safe. I can understand that contradiction. However, I cannot agree that an umpire can incorrectly rule him safe at a bag where the play is being made, when he never touches that bag. I can guarantee you that to every person in the park, with the exception of your evaluator and maybe a very seasoned fellow umpire, is gonna think you are an idiot when this happens:

you: "Safe!"

DC (while running out of the dugout at a high rate of speed): "Are you crazy? He never even touched the bag!!!!"

you: "Yep, I know that, but the call is still Safe"

DC: "uh... you have lost all your marbles Blue, we are playing baseball, and he has to touch the bag"

you: "No, he doesn't"

DC: "Let me show you the rule Blue"

you: "I know that is what it says, but let me tell you the interpretation of that very loosely explained rule so you can think about it in the parking lot, cause now I have to throw you out of here for pulling out that rule book"

Sorry, just can't do it, not gonna do it, won't ever do it. This sounds better to me:

Runner arrives at first, misses bag, ball hits F3's mitt split second later -

you: "OUT!"

OC (From Coaches box): "Are you crazy? He beat that throw by a country mile!!"

you: "yes he did Coach, but he never touched the base"

OC (knowing he missed the base cause he is standing right there: "Oh, alright, good call Blue"

Even if the OC knows of the interpretation of having to call him safe in this instance, do you really think he will argue it? Someone is going to look like a horse's ass here, and it is not going to be me fellas! LOL

Now let me ask you, which scenario is better umpiring? Better for the game? Better for the Umpire? Better for everyone involved?

I will stop now, just my 2 cents.

[Mr Umpire]

Do you then, advise the defense to complete the appeal? What would the mechanics be at that point?

No. I keep my mouth shut and do nothing but go to the infield. If you have a player or coach who has a clue, they will be saying this as they tag the batter or base. Then, I have an appeal.

I understand, and agree the mechanics are correct, but I personally feel that making the out call would be a lot easier to defend:

U1: Out

OC: What do you mean out, he beat the throw.

U1: Yes, but he missed the base.

OC: Oh, ok then Mr. Umpire sir. I am sure sorry that I ever doubted you. You were in perfect position to see the play, and I know you spend hours studying the rules everyday. I should never have said anything. Should I leave now?

U1: No that's OK, we all make mistakes.

OC: I have never seen you make a.... (on and on)

3 steps beyond the base and the umpire calls him out. What does everyone on the field think? I am blind as a bat and am about to get an a$$ chewing from across the field until he gets up to me still yelling how blind I am. All of the fans are all over me and my partner and I will not get out of there alive. I will be sending that coach home before he ever realizes what the call was.

Or, I call him safe or do nothing if it doesn't warrant a call b/c it is so obvious he was 3 steps beyond the base. Then, the player says "Blue, I want to appeal he missed 1B". I say "Out". Now, everyone knows why he is out. And, then the coach won't ask why I called him out. He comes and says "Why did you call him safe then out?" I say "He was safe on the play b/c he beat the throw. But, he was out on appeal b/c he missed 1B." Now, I will hear "Oh, I didn't see him miss the base." I say "Ok". End of conversation.

Easier to explain the actions since they will be so obvious to everyone why the out call was made.

[Ump Rube]

Mr Umpire that sounds reasonable and more understandable... but can you punch it up a little bit and add more of the stuff where the OC praises me for being so smart? :angel4:

[Mr Umpire]

Mr Umpire that sounds reasonable and more understandable... but can you punch it up a little bit and add more of the stuff where the OC praises me for being so smart?

Also, 7.10( says "Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when with the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged." So, this clearly shows it has to be on appeal and not on the actual play.

Now, if the play is so close that it does become judgment of if the batter beat the ball or not, then call him out on the play. The judgment is yours and cannot be argued. It was a close play and could have gone either way. But, if it is so obvious he was safe, then he better be called safe and then out on appeal(if made). Then, there are 2 distinct actions and both can be explained.

The fundamental rule of base running is to acquire legal possession of the base. Once the runner has passed the base, he gains legal possession until he touches the next base. That is a fundamental rule of baseball. If a runner passes HP without touching it, he has scored until appealed or tagged. If no appeal, he has legally scored even though he didn't touch it. Same concept only it is at 1B and it doesn't matter if he advances to 2B. This is the reason for the mechanic. All bases are treated the same for this purpose, to count runs. And, to not tip off the teams of something wrong has occurred on the play.

[Dragon29]

Guys - this is simple. If you call the BR out for missing the base you're coaching, not umpiring. You have now made (and ruled upon) an appeal for the defense.

Argument (should be) over.

[therefump]

I've already asked once for MLB or MiLB references. Give me some concrete examples from these please.