When is a player out of play?

[johnnyg08]

R2, 0 out - F3 makes a great catch in foul territory. He falls over the fence, but is holding himself up using the fence. He's strong enough to pull himself back over the fence without touching the ground in DBT. There are points during this where his entire body would be on the DBT side of the fence, but he never touches the ground in DBT. 

Does the ball remain live in an instance like this? 

Or do we kill it and bump? 

 

[Jonump]

If his "entire body would be on the dead ball side of the fence" I have kill it and bump according to (FED)  5.1 (i) "leaves the field by...OR over any boundary or barrier such as a fence"

Impressive feat.

[Coach Carl]

Use the same logic as the rule for when he can no longer make a legal catch.  Once he no longer has at least one foot over the field then it's time to kill it and award bases. 

From OBR:  "one or both feet on or over the playing surface and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or other out-of-play area".  Based on your description, he met the second requirement but not the first.

[BigBlue4u]

19 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

R2, 0 out - F3 makes a great catch in foul territory. He falls over the fence, but is holding himself up using the fence. He's strong enough to pull himself back over the fence without touching the ground in DBT. There are points during this where his entire body would be on the DBT side of the fence, but he never touches the ground in DBT. 

Does the ball remain live in an instance like this? 

Or do we kill it and bump? 

 

Here's the MLB Rule: Comment (b) Reaching into Out-Of-Play Areas

A fielder may reach over, but not step into any out-of-play area (e.g. dugout or stands) to make a catch....A fielder, in order to make a legal catch on a foul ball nearing a dugout or other out-of-play area, must have one or both feet on or over the playing surface (including the lip of the dugout) and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or in any other out-of-play area.

Based on this, you have a catch and a live ball.

[Coach Carl]

46 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

Based on this, you have a catch and a live ball.

I assumed the legal catch was not under contention but that the issue is, at what point has the fielder taken the ball out of play?

I've applied the logic of the rule that you and I both quoted to determine when, in general, a fielder is out of play. 

@johnnyg08 has described that the fielder's body is completely over the out-of-play area (even though it hasn't touched the ground in the out-of-play area).  This means both of his feet are over the out-of-play area, which I think is the relavent fact.  When at least one of his feet is no longer over the playing surface isn't he now in an out-of-play area?  Does he need to touch the ground before he is considered out-of-play?  

[johnnyg08]

9 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

I assumed the legal catch was not under contention but that the issue is, at what point has the fielder taken the ball out of play?

I've applied the logic of the rule that you and I both quoted to determine when, in general, a fielder is out of play. 

@johnnyg08 has described that the fielder's body is completely over the out-of-play area (even though it hasn't touched the ground in the out-of-play area).  This means both of his feet are over the out-of-play area, which I think is the relavent fact.  When at least one of his feet is no longer over the playing surface isn't he now in an out-of-play area?  Does he need to touch the ground before he is considered out-of-play?  

Correct. We have an out on the catch...but do we kill it and bump the runner(s)? Or not? 

 

[The Man in Blue]

14 hours ago, Jonump said:

If his "entire body would be on the dead ball side of the fence" I have kill it and bump according to (FED)  5.1 (i) "leaves the field by...OR over any boundary or barrier such as a fence"

Impressive feat.

 

First, I feel as if the runners are getting more than the award if it is left live.

Second, in a recent thread on a thrown ball, many umpires made the argument that the ball could travel through dead ball territory, as long as it didn't touch anything, and remain live.  (I don't feel we ever reached a 100% rule supported answer on either side of that.)

Third, if no part of him touched anything in DBT, then his entire body could not have left the field of play.  Something has to be holding him in bounds or in place on top of the fence (the top is not DBT).  If he touched the DBT side of the fence, he touched DBT.

[Jonump]

In my mind he had fallen over the fence and was clinging to it on the dead ball side so therefore touching it, and certainly went all the way over and out of the field. My mind is a weird place though, so not sure that's what OP intended as a visual

[johnnyg08]

20 minutes ago, Jonump said:

In my mind he had fallen over the fence and was clinging to it on the dead ball side so therefore touching it, and certainly went all the way over and out of the field. My mind is a weird place though, so not sure that's what OP intended as a visual

Think of a four foot (or however high those fences are). F3 makes the legal catch and his momentum carries him completely over the fence. He's strong and he holds himself up on the other side of the fence without touching DBT (the ground) and muscles himself back over into LBT. 

[Richvee]

Then he's holding onto the fence with his arms on top of the fence, and nothing's touching the ground on the DB side? I say he's in play. 

[Velho]

16 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Second, in a recent thread on a thrown ball, many umpires made the argument that the ball could travel through dead ball territory, as long as it didn't touch anything, and remain live.  (I don't feel we ever reached a 100% rule supported answer on either side of that.)

This was left live even though it hit the DBT side of a pole that is in play. Both X post and embedded video below.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

He's strong and he holds himself up on the other side of the fence without touching DBT (the ground) and muscles himself back over into LBT. 

Similar to what in Pro Wrestling is called skinning the cat

 

[BigBlue4u]

20 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Correct. We have an out on the catch...but do we kill it and bump the runner(s)? Or not? 

 

 

4 hours ago, Velho said:

Similar to what in Pro Wrestling is called skinning the cat

 

Skin the cat WWE.mov

I believe we are overthinking this.  Re-read the rule:

A fielder, in order to make a legal catch on a foul ball nearing a dugout or other out-of-play area, must have one or both feet on or over the playing surface (including the lip of the dugout) and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or in any other out-of-play area.

To me, that means that the fielder must have possession of the ball before his feet are no longer

on or over in-play area.

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

 

I believe we are overthinking this.  Re-read the rule:

A fielder, in order to make a legal catch on a foul ball nearing a dugout or other out-of-play area, must have one or both feet on or over the playing surface (including the lip of the dugout) and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or in any other out-of-play area.

To me, that means that the fielder must have possession of the ball before his feet are no longer

on or over in-play area.

 

Everybody has agreed we have a catch; that was never a question.  The question is: when is a fielder considered to have entered DBT?  Are we killing this and awarding a catch-and-carry, or are we leaving it live?

[The Man in Blue]

10 hours ago, Velho said:

This was left live even though it hit the DBT side of a pole that is in play. Both X post and embedded video below.

 

Truist Park ground rules have those poles as live (not DBT).

https://www.mlb.com/braves/ballpark/ground-rules

• Bounding ball striking short fences on top of the field walls in foul territory down the left and right field lines: In Play.

 

[Velho]

11 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Truist Park ground rules have those poles as live (not DBT).

Not surprised. My point was to use that as an illustration of a ball passing over DBT and remaining live.

[Bonus point of unintended consequences: $s to 🍩s that the author never contemplated the backside of the pole coming into play. They were only focused on the part of the pole facing live territory and the GR was written accordingly]

[Coach Carl]

I pictured it like the attached, with one exception, the glove is not touching the ground.

In this photo the fielder is on his way over the fence and lands in the Boston bullpen but in our OP we have him stopping his momentum and getting back onto the field of play without ever touching the ground in DBT.

It is a third world play, which is probably why we won't find definitive answers.  

[The Man in Blue]

On 6/19/2026 at 11:15 AM, Velho said:

Not surprised. My point was to use that as an illustration of a ball passing over DBT and remaining live.

[Bonus point of unintended consequences: $s to 🍩s that the author never contemplated the backside of the pole coming into play. They were only focused on the part of the pole facing live territory and the GR was written accordingly]

Which is why the orgs need to change their writing procedures.  I know nothing can ever be perfectly dialed in, and a rule book cannot cover every possible scenario, but they have a bad habit of either over-writing or under-writing rules.  Write it up, send it to 50 random umpires, and find out if they are receiving the same message you are trying to deliver.

This is a case of over-writing.  Simply taking out the word "bounding" keeps the rule intact and makes it more accurate and applicable.

• Bounding ball striking short fences on top of the field walls in foul territory down the left and right field lines: In Play.

 

[The Man in Blue]

On 6/19/2026 at 3:04 PM, Coach Carl said:

I pictured it like the attached, with one exception, the glove is not touching the ground.

In this photo the fielder is on his way over the fence and lands in the Boston bullpen but in our OP we have him stopping his momentum and getting back onto the field of play without ever touching the ground in DBT.

It is a third world play, which is probably why we won't find definitive answers.  

 

This is exactly what I was picturing in my mind.  However, I would argue touching the back side of the wall/fence is touching DBT (even if he didn't touch the ground).  The back side is in DBT.

[johnnyg08]

On 6/19/2026 at 3:04 PM, Coach Carl said:

I pictured it like the attached, with one exception, the glove is not touching the ground.

In this photo the fielder is on his way over the fence and lands in the Boston bullpen but in our OP we have him stopping his momentum and getting back onto the field of play without ever touching the ground in DBT.

It is a third world play, which is probably why we won't find definitive answers.  

Yep. I think that's close enough to illustrate the question I'm asking. Nice find!