Failing to touch first on a walk-off hit by pitch

[Vikki]

11-12 yr old Cal Ripken/Babe Ruth (OBR) semifinal. Bottom 6^th (last inning), home team has come back to tie the game 8-8. With bases loaded and two outs, batter is hit by pitch. R3 comes across the plate. But the BR gets only halfway to first before turning around and heading to celebrate with his teammates outside of the third base dugout. Most of the visiting team has come off the field into foul territory and are lining up to shake hands when I start to hear them figure out that he never touched first. Hearing this, I quickly checked to see who was left on the field. The shortstop and two outfielders were still in fair territory. The BR was at this point in foul territory on third base line, lining up to shake hands. The SS takes the ball and throws to first. I upheld the appeal, BR out, no runs score. We go to extra innings, where the home team eventually wins (again) 10-9 on a steal of home.   

No arguments from the offensive head coach, who was actually coaching first and blamed himself immediately for what happened.

This coach told me in between the inning that he had realized the error, but seeing his BR had started to run across the field towards the third base dugout, he thought he was already out for running out of the baseline and/or abandoning his effort to touch the next base, so he gave up trying to call him back.

His statement to me brought up some questions:

1. Babe Ruth 7.08 (a) 2 states “Any runner is out when -- after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.” I’m asking for confirmation that this rule does NOT apply here because he must touch first base first. Correct?
2. If he cannot be ruled automatically out (without appeal) for abandoning effort, then it must be appealed to get the out. My question is, how much leeway does the BR have to realize what he’s done and correct his mistake? Or asked another way, at what point would you start considering the appeal from the defense?

I was imagining a scenario where the kid makes it past the pitcher’s mound, then realizes it, and turns to run to first. Would I allow that? What if the defense is already appealing?

But what if he’s crossed third base line into foul territory? Or the dugout? Can he still turn around and run to touch first? Where is the line drawn so that the defense can begin the appeal?

 

 

[jimurrayalterego]

7 minutes ago, Vikki said:

11-12 yr old Cal Ripken/Babe Ruth (OBR) semifinal. Bottom 6^th (last inning), home team has come back to tie the game 8-8. With bases loaded and two outs, batter is hit by pitch. R3 comes across the plate. But the BR gets only halfway to first before turning around and heading to celebrate with his teammates outside of the third base dugout. Most of the visiting team has come off the field into foul territory and are lining up to shake hands when I start to hear them figure out that he never touched first. Hearing this, I quickly checked to see who was left on the field. The shortstop and two outfielders were still in fair territory. The BR was at this point in foul territory on third base line, lining up to shake hands. The SS takes the ball and throws to first. I upheld the appeal, BR out, no runs score. We go to extra innings, where the home team eventually wins (again) 10-9 on a steal of home.   

No arguments from the offensive head coach, who was actually coaching first and blamed himself immediately for what happened.

This coach told me in between the inning that he had realized the error, but seeing his BR had started to run across the field towards the third base dugout, he thought he was already out for running out of the baseline and/or abandoning his effort to touch the next base, so he gave up trying to call him back.

His statement to me brought up some questions:

1. Babe Ruth 7.08 (a) 2 states “Any runner is out when -- after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.” I’m asking for confirmation that this rule does NOT apply here because he must touch first base first. Correct?
2. If he cannot be ruled automatically out (without appeal) for abandoning effort, then it must be appealed to get the out. My question is, how much leeway does the BR have to realize what he’s done and correct his mistake? Or asked another way, at what point would you start considering the appeal from the defense?

I was imagining a scenario where the kid makes it past the pitcher’s mound, then realizes it, and turns to run to first. Would I allow that? What if the defense is already appealing?

But what if he’s crossed third base line into foul territory? Or the dugout? Can he still turn around and run to touch first? Where is the line drawn so that the defense can begin the appeal?

 

 

Since the batter did not "miss" 1B there can be no appeal. The umpire has to judge whether the batter refused to advance. How the umpire judges that is up to interp but some well respected rules gurus say to tell the batter to advance. If he refuse we use this rule:

"5.08

(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base. Rule 5.08(b) Comment: An exception will be if fans rush onto the field and physically prevent the runner from touching home plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases, the umpires shall award the runner the base because of the obstruction by the fans. PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the offending player shall be called out."

NFHS would allow that appeal. NCAA I have no idea how they would handle it. In CR/BR/OBR it could be argued that no appeal is required for the ump to deem refusal or that the ump should request an advance before deeming refusal. Since most think the reason for the rule is to simplify game endings in such situations I believe the ump should say "hey go to 1B." and then apply the rule if needed.

[Vikki]

Thank you. Yes. That's the rule I should have applied. In the Babe Ruth book it's 4.09b. 

And I agree with the implied logic of "refusal" - to me that sounds like the umpire can make a reasonable attempt to get him to go to first before calling him out. In this case he certainly wasn't refusing, he made it halfway and didn't think he needed to complete the touch.

So knowing this, if I had it to do over again, as he turned away from the base path, I'd just tell him hey, you gotta touch first. 

It feels somewhat uncomfortable because I'm telling a player what to do to comply with a rule, but from your explanation it sounds like it's acceptable in this situation. 

Now I'm glad they ended up winning anyway and it didn't determine the outcome.

 

[noumpere]

Just tell the runner something like "you need to touch first before the game is over" or "the run doesn't count until you touch first."

 

You are just explaining the rule, not coaching the runner or telling him what to do.

[maven]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Just tell the runner something like "you need to touch first before the game is over" or "the run doesn't count until you touch first."

 

You are just explaining the rule, not coaching the runner or telling him what to do.

Just so. Umpires who refuse to do this are overly impressed with their rules knowledge at the expense of the good order of the game.

Some coaches are aware that there's a rule at stake in walk-off situations, and they'll ask to make sure they're doing it right. Good on them: the rule varies by code, so it's worth checking in about it for that particular game (plus, if the umpire does NOT know the rule and will be applying his own special version, the coach can adjust accordingly to prevent a problem).

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, Vikki said:

It feels somewhat uncomfortable because I'm telling a player what to do to comply with a rule, but from your explanation it sounds like it's acceptable in this situation. 

Here’s the other thing… you mention that it was a HBP. As we know, HBP makes the ball Dead, and the award of 1B is a dead-ball award. Thus, two components emerge: 

1. The offense cannot be adjudged to “abandoning his/her effort to run the bases” while the ball is Dead. Plenty of times, with the ball (now) Dead, has a Runner left a base so as to go pass off protective equipment, or to get a different helmet, or have medical attention (such as a cut suffered on a slide), or had coach assistance (“that’s an out!”) in getting off the field prior to an actual substitution being made, or met over in or near the dugout with the coach on an offensive conference… and it would be asinine to adjudge “abandonment”! What if that kid had been hit in the head on that HBP, and was lying on or near the plate? Are you calling him Out for failure to touch 1B?? Because you can only do that on the second point… 
2. Appeal. Only NFHS allows for dead-ball appeals. The other core codes all require live-ball appeals, and the ball, in HBP, is immediately dead. A member of the defense cannot just pick up / retrieve the/a ball and “tag him” (or a base). The ball has to be made Live again. And, if the same latitude is conveyed to the defense to get 8 players back in Fair territory (the 9th being the Catcher in Foul, behind the plate), with a ball, and a F1 engaged to the pitching plate, why isn’t that latitude being given to a single player – the BR – to “figure it out” and go touch 1B??? Why, because he got into a handshake line?? 

Absurd. 

Professionals – players and/or coaches – know better, kids don’t.