Whats the call

[spiritump]

Let the play run out unless you are 100% sure it hit his hand first. It does not sound like you are sure.

After the play ask the batter what happened. 12U will probably tell you the truth. If he tells you it was the shock of the impact on the bat, then take the result of the play. If he tells you he was hit, Dead Ball. Strike. Runners return.

There is no HBP for me as I interpret the squaring + hit = legitimate attempt

why don"t you ask the batter if the pitch was a strike before you call it--your the ump make a call and live with it.

[mstaylor]

This is one of the arguments one of the other guys is trying to give me:

"Rolando..this is my last ATTEMPT at converting you to our side then you have to determine the call for yourself:

In the original e-mail "Cal Ripken rules(age 12u), batter squares to bunt, pitch is in on him, batter bunts ball"...

these are the optimal words...batter bunts ball..that's what you have to go on, period. Just like "batter swings at the ball", no different. It's your judgment as to whether batter bunts the ball means he made the attempt to bunt or he held the bat out there and the ball hit his fingers...my judgment based on the scenario is that he made an attempt to bunt and as a result, the ball hit the bat, went fair and becomes a live ball...therefore he is out.

He didn't say, batter did not attempt to bunt the ball or ball came inside and hit the batter and bat at same time, nothing like that...he said, "batter bunts ball".

OK!!!"

What do you guys think of his answer???

I think his answer at best is incomplete, at worse is wrong. As been discussed you have to determine if it hit him. If yes then kill it, if no, let it play. Next you have to determine is was there an attempt? If yes then it will be either a strike or a fair ball. What you need to convince you compadres of is that you can't have a hit batter and a fair batted ball, it is physically impossible.

[Mr Umpire]

Regardless of if the batter bunts the ball or the ball hits the batter as he is pulling the bat back. If the pitch or batted ball (depending on when the ball touches the batter), the ball is dead immediately. That is basic rule explanation for that part. The rules are VERY clear about that. 5.09(a), 6.05(g), 6.05(h), 6.08(bee)

Every one of these rules have the ball is dead immediately. What matters is the sequence of events as to which rules apply. If the ball hits him first, rules 5.09(a) and 6.08(bee) apply. If the ball is bunted first, 6.05(g) and 6.05(h) apply. No matter what, the ball is dead.

[noumpere]

This is an excellent pre-game situation. I talk with my partners about this type of scenario before each game. If he (BU) has the ball hitting the batter, in this situation, call "time" almost immediately and emphatically.

Thats true if its a batted ball hitting the batter but generally not true if its a pitch hitting the batter.

[Dragon29]

I have no idea why there is such an extensive conversation going on about this. As the OP is written, I have a fair ball and am waiting for my partner to rule on the play at 1B.

There's absolutely nothing in the OP that says the batter was hit - nothing. Shaking his finger? Really? You're going to call a HBP that you didn't see (or even hear!) because a player is shaking his finger? Not me; that reaction could also be caused by bat vibration (was he wearing gloves? we don't know!) Call what you see, not what you think probably happened.

As written - fair ball.

And, sdix - the 0-2 reference was (I believe) noumpere's way of saying he's the 2nd guy that doesn't understand why you'd ask the batter. Count me as the third. Don't ask the batter.

Bad approach. Probably a bad conclusion.

I couldn't disagree with you more. If you don't know whether or not it hit him, why call it? How often do you make calls you don't see? (I'm guessing it's not very often)

[yawetag]

You're going to call a HBP that you didn't see (or even hear!) because a player is shaking his finger?

Dragon brings up the point I was going to make. With kids playing with non-wood bats, there's a HUGE sound difference between hitting the bat and hitting the fingers. Sometimes making a call isn't always about what you see -- there are other senses you can use, too.

[JaxRolo]

You're going to call a HBP that you didn't see (or even hear!) because a player is shaking his finger?

Dragon brings up the point I was going to make. With kids playing with non-wood bats, there's a HUGE sound difference between hitting the bat and hitting the fingers. Sometimes making a call isn't always about what you see -- there are other senses you can use, too.

Common Sense? :rolleyes:

[SnareDrum]

You're going to call a HBP that you didn't see (or even hear!) because a player is shaking his finger?

Dragon brings up the point I was going to make. With kids playing with non-wood bats, there's a HUGE sound difference between hitting the bat and hitting the fingers. Sometimes making a call isn't always about what you see -- there are other senses you can use, too.

Common Sense?

Common indeed! (good one!) But I hope that most of us are using more than sight to make calls... I can hear a pitch bounce in the dirt then the pop in the glove. I can hear that little tick of the ball on bat as the batter swings and know that I have a foul ball or foul tip even though the I didn't see the ball change direction. I watch 1B and listen for the ball. I hear a dull sickening thud and then the ball landing at the batters feet as he drops as if he's been shot and I know he got whacked even though I didn't see the impact. On an HBP or any call, putting all of the evidence available in that split second gives you the decision, and yes, it's up to you to decide what evidence to use and which to ignore.

Last week, a batter ducked to avoid a pitch but left his bat up. Ball glances off bat then whacks the guy in the helmet and goes foul. The helmet and bat were VERY close together, and the loudest sound was the helmet... but I heard the soft "*tick* of the bat & ball first. Didn't see it hit the bat, but I knew what I had from the sound... FOUL BALL!! OC in the 3B box certainly didn't hear it. But when I told him I heard it hit the bat first, he just nodded and started flashing his signals. God bless my ears!

[Rich Ives]

I have no idea why there is such an extensive conversation going on about this. As the OP is written, I have a fair ball and am waiting for my partner to rule on the play at 1B.

There's absolutely nothing in the OP that says the batter was hit - nothing. Shaking his finger? Really? You're going to call a HBP that you didn't see (or even hear!) because a player is shaking his finger? Not me; that reaction could also be caused by bat vibration (was he wearing gloves? we don't know!) Call what you see, not what you think probably happened.

As written - fair ball.

And, sdix - the 0-2 reference was (I believe) noumpere's way of saying he's the 2nd guy that doesn't understand why you'd ask the batter. Count me as the third. Don't ask the batter.

Bad approach. Probably a bad conclusion.

I couldn't disagree with you more. If you don't know whether or not it hit him, why call it? How often do you make calls you don't see? (I'm guessing it's not very often)

11-12 year old kid is NOT going to fake getting hit.

If you don't use clues other than visual ones to make calls then you're not up to speed as an umpire. The most common example is at 1B where people claim the procedure is to watch the base and listen for the ball hitting the glove.

[Dragon29]

I have no idea why there is such an extensive conversation going on about this. As the OP is written, I have a fair ball and am waiting for my partner to rule on the play at 1B.

There's absolutely nothing in the OP that says the batter was hit - nothing. Shaking his finger? Really? You're going to call a HBP that you didn't see (or even hear!) because a player is shaking his finger? Not me; that reaction could also be caused by bat vibration (was he wearing gloves? we don't know!) Call what you see, not what you think probably happened.

As written - fair ball.

And, sdix - the 0-2 reference was (I believe) noumpere's way of saying he's the 2nd guy that doesn't understand why you'd ask the batter. Count me as the third. Don't ask the batter.

Bad approach. Probably a bad conclusion.

I couldn't disagree with you more. If you don't know whether or not it hit him, why call it? How often do you make calls you don't see? (I'm guessing it's not very often)

11-12 year old kid is NOT going to fake getting hit.

If you don't use clues other than visual ones to make calls then you're not up to speed as an umpire. The most common example is at 1B where people claim the procedure is to watch the base and listen for the ball hitting the glove.

OK - I didn't say to not use information other than sight. I simply said that, based upon the information in the OP, I don't have a HBP.

Of course you use senses other than sight, but did the OP indicate anything that would call those into play? Did it mention a sound? A mis-direction? Anything to indicate a HBP other than the (IMHO) highly unreliable visual indicator of a batter shaking his finger? No. Now, if I'm standing there during the play and non-visual information not contained in the OP leads me to the conclusion that the batter was hit, I'm going to call it.

And, to say an 11-12 year old is not going to fake getting hit is, in my experience, dead wrong. I've seen kids that age & younger fake being hit and fake not being hit, so I'm going with what I had on the play as I saw/heard/felt/smelled/tasted it.

Make sense?

[mtnump]

Okay here's one: Cal Ripken rules(age 12u), batter squares to bunt, pitch is in on him, batter bunts ball, immediately drops the bat and starts to shake his hand and hold onto a finger, ball goes into fair territory where it's picked up by the pitcher and thrown to first. What do you have?

I am with you Dragon. Based on the info given that the "batter bunts ball," live ball, out. There was nothing mentioned about ball bunted off of fingers or ball bunted that just didn't sound right...

We had one in a game the other night where a LL minor got jammed. He hit the ball off the handle and dropped like a rock in the box. The cause??? 36 degrees with a ball off the handle that bat feels like it is electrically charged!!! I am pretty sure that young fellow never experienced that before!