OHC asking for help at the end of the innning

[BLWizzRanger]

NFHS but wouldn't mind other rule sets being answered.  I was PU. 

Two outs in a middle inning.  F6 throw pulls F3 off of the base.  BU was straight-lined and didn't see the pulled foot; called BR out.  Defensive team celebrates and runs off of the field (all defensive team members are in the dugout getting ready to bat - no infielder is between the lines).  OHC (3BC) walks down (he didn't run) to the PU and asks for help.  PU tells him to ask the BU for help.  When BU comes for help, PU gives him what he's got and the call is overturned.  General mayhem ensues.

This is a ask for help by the OHC.  I have this falling under 10.1.4.  This isn't an appeal and I don't think having the infielders still on the field is applicable.  This was getting the call right.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Richvee]

FED - Nothing says defense needs to be on the field for the offense to ask for help. I don’t see anything on “getting the right” without replay in NCAA either. 

[MadMax]

14 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

NFHS but wouldn't mind other rule sets being answered. 

NFHS has a characteristic to it that is completely effective for amateur baseball. Indeed, my opinion is it should be used for all amateur baseball, regardless of OBR, NFHS, or LL (3 of the 4 core rulesets), short of NCAA. That characteristic is Dead Ball Appeals. 

Thus, with Dead Ball Appeals, it is (nearly) irrelevant as to if fielders or runners “left the field”, or where they’re standing, etc. What occurred while the ball was Live is all that matters. Keep in mind, however, that the 3rd Out being called (whether or not it is overturned upon appeal or crew conference) does kill the baseball (at that moment). So, let’s say that there was R2, with 2 Outs, and the throw from F6 to F3 does indeed pull F3 off the bag, but BU calls an Out (for the 3rd Out). Just because R2 trots in towards the plate while everyone (else) leaves the field means nothing. It doesn’t mean that, if-&-when the Out call is overturned that his run scores, or he is awarded home. You might have to (re)place him back at 2B, especially if he remained at 2B while the F6 fielded the ball, so as to avoid being tagged. 
Such a situation may arise from a catch/no-catch, with 2 Outs; despite it being overturned, you can only really justify a 1-base advancement or award, you cannot “assume a double”. 

Now, with that all said, this sort of situation puts the other umpire(s) (non-calling umpire) in a bit of a pickle; you never want to supersede / call-or-tip-off-so-as-to-conflict-with your partner(s). This takes wisdom, prudence, and some experience-acquired tact. As you said, it’s about getting the call right. As such, there’s no (real) time limit, or any restrictions on this, other than a (forthcoming) pitch. Mistakes happen. Errors happen. There is time to fix them, in the amateur (non-College) game. 

While you cannot control your partner(s), you certainly want to cultivate, in them, this same attitude of getting the call right in good faith and tact. We all need to realize, in the amateur game (especially), that on close plays, there will be one of three outcomes of the call – acceptance, dissent, or legitimate question. We need to realize and recognize the difference; not every question is dissent, and not every dissent is a personal attack. 
It comes with experience, but you begin to recognize when a question is coming. As such, you (as an umpire) can deftly shorten the time from call to “getting help”. 

I understand mayhem can ensue in reaction to a call being overturned, especially after deliberation. The way to stifle it is with transparency and logic, IOW logically and succinctly present the facts and process of the situation you’re all – players, coaches & umpires – in. Formulate your plan as to where you’re going to place runners while you’re presenting these facts and rationale. Often (in these cases), you can mitigate – ie. sugar coat – the bitter pill (of truth) by stating something like this, for example – “the Runner who was at 2B stays at 2B”, or “Sure, I’ll let your pitcher throw 2-3 warmups” (especially after a prolonged deliberation). Or, “You (miffed coach) would be extended the same courtesy if the roles were reversed.” 

Good on ya, Wizz. 

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

NFHS but wouldn't mind other rule sets being answered.  I was PU. 

Two outs in a middle inning.  F6 throw pulls F3 off of the base.  BU was straight-lined and didn't see the pulled foot; called BR out.  Defensive team celebrates and runs off of the field (all defensive team members are in the dugout getting ready to bat - no infielder is between the lines).  OHC (3BC) walks down (he didn't run) to the PU and asks for help.  PU tells him to ask the BU for help.  When BU comes for help, PU gives him what he's got and the call is overturned.  General mayhem ensues.

This is a ask for help by the OHC.  I have this falling under 10.1.4.  This isn't an appeal and I don't think having the infielders still on the field is applicable.  This was getting the call right.

What are your thoughts?

 

Having trouble suppressing my snark tendency, I would say that 10.1.4 is not a rule, 10-1-4 is. But your periods did lead me to this caseplay which is designated by periods:

“10.2.3 SITUATION N: With two outs and runners on first and second bases, B5 hits a ground ball to F3 who backhands the ball and shovels a throw to F1. The base umpire calls B5 out, but B5 asks the base umpire to check with the plate umpire because B5 thought F1 pulled his foot. During the discussion, R2 from second scores. The plate umpire indicates that F1 did in fact pull his foot. The base umpire then calls the batter-runner safe. The coach of the defensive team tells the umpire that because the call was reversed, a run scored. Therefore, R2 should have to return to third base. RULING: The umpire shall return R2 to third, R1 to second, and B5 to first base in accordance with Rule 10-2-3l. COMMENT: If proper umpire mechanics were used, this situation would not have occurred.”

Obviously the caseplay doesn't mention who was where but if R2 scored most likely the defense had already all or in part abandoned the field and did not play on R2. 10-2-3l would be where to hang your hat.

[Velho]

12 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

COMMENT: If proper umpire mechanics were used, this situation would not have occurred.”

What is this referring too?

[MadMax]

7 hours ago, Velho said:

If proper umpire mechanics were used,

My takeaway from this comment is that, on any discussion between (a) coach(es) and umpires, or umpires themselves, Time should be called. 

However, that conflicts with the implied definition of the A) third out (of an inning) and B) the end of the ballgame (ie. the home team scores the winning run). 
IIRC, @jimurrayalterego and I (and others) have discussed A in several threads on U-E.   

[BLWizzRanger]

7 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Having trouble suppressing my snark tendency, I would say that 10.1.4 is not a rule, 10-1-4 is. But your periods did lead me to this caseplay which is designated by periods:

Hey! Cut me some slack!  I had mayhem to deal with.

It actually wasn't too bad.  I let the coach chew my ear for a minute and he went back into the dugout on his own accord and the regular parrots (parents who squawk) in the stands were their usual self. I already had them tuned out.