Runner Hit by Batted Ball in Foul Territory

[Slippery Fish]

I missed the following question on my NFHS rules exam:

Q: R3 takes his lead off third base in foul territory. B2 hits the ball, and it caroms off third base and touches R3 who is still in foul territory. What is the correct ruling?

A. R3 is out.

B. The ball remains live.

C. The ball is dead.

D. R3 must return to third.

I answered A, and it was marked incorrect. I was not given the correct answer.

8-2-k says that any runner is out when the runner "is contacted by a fair batted ball ." Rule 2-5-1-e says that a fair ball is a batted ball that "touches first, second, or third base". So, the status of the ball in the question is a fair ball because it touched third. Then it touched the runner (w/o passing through or by an infielder), so the runner should be out. Right? Apparently not

FWIW, my gut feeling was that the runner was not out, but I couldn't justify that with my reading of the rules. Looking back, I believe I felt this way because OBR 6.01(a)(11) says that a runner is out if "a fair ball touches him on fair territory," which is an extra requirement that I don't see in FED.

I'm assuming the correct answer is B, but I'm not for certain. Any help understanding this would be much appreciated!

 

[jimurrayalterego]

21 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

I missed the following question on my NFHS rules exam:

Q: R3 takes his lead off third base in foul territory. B2 hits the ball, and it caroms off third base and touches R3 who is still in foul territory. What is the correct ruling?

A. R3 is out.

B. The ball remains live.

C. The ball is dead.

D. R3 must return to third.

I answered A, and it was marked incorrect. I was not given the correct answer.

8-2-k says that any runner is out when the runner "is contacted by a fair batted ball ." Rule 2-5-1-e says that a fair ball is a batted ball that "touches first, second, or third base". So, the status of the ball in the question is a fair ball because it touched third. Then it touched the runner (w/o passing through or by an infielder), so the runner should be out. Right? Apparently not

FWIW, my gut feeling was that the runner was not out, but I couldn't justify that with my reading of the rules. Looking back, I believe I felt this way because OBR 6.01(a)(11) says that a runner is out if "a fair ball touches him on fair territory," which is an extra requirement that I don't see in FED.

I'm assuming the correct answer is B, but I'm not for certain. Any help understanding this would be much appreciated!

 

You have to go back to a 2010NFHS Interp which makes it the same as OBR. Why they haven't rewritten the rule who knows? There is also a caseplay 5.1.1.N. Don't know when that showed up.

SITUATION 4: R1 is at third base and is taking his lead a few feet down the line in foul ground. B2 hits a sharp ground ball that hits third base and caroms off the base and (a) hits R1 accidentally, or (b) R1 intentionally moves so that he is hit by the fair ball. RULING: In (a), the ball remains live and in play. In (b), the ball is dead, R1 is out for his interference and other runner(s) are returned to the base they occupied at the time of the interference. B2 is awarded first base. (8-4-2k, 2-5-1e)

[Richvee]

@jimurrayalterego has the FED interp  and caseplay. Nice find!  
Here’s how I answered this question. 
D is definitely wrong. 
If it’s interference, A and C are correct. 
So, the answer must be B. 

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

@jimurrayalterego has the FED interp  and caseplay. Nice find!  
Here’s how I answered this question. 
D is definitely wrong. 
If it’s interference, A and C are correct. 
So, the answer must be B. 

Actually also found a caseplay/interp where they called the ball dead and returned R3, another combo that would have to be together to be correct. Effin FED.

[Richvee]

10 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Effin FED

Perfect

[MAUmpire]

9 hours ago, Richvee said:

Perfect

Clearly it’s “E. All the of above” 😬
 

But can anyone explain why there can’t be interference after the batted ball hits the base?

[Replacematt]

10 minutes ago, MAUmpire said:

Clearly it’s “E. All the of above” 😬
 

But can anyone explain why there can’t be interference after the batted ball hits the base?

There can be. Nothing says there can't be.

[noumpere]

14 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

There is also a caseplay 5.1.1.N. Don't know when that showed up.

 

It was there in 2017.  Probably earlier.

 

a runner is out when hit by a fair batted ball in fair territory.  I agree FED could be more clear.

[jimurrayalterego]

12 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Actually also found a caseplay/interp where they called the ball dead and returned R3, another combo that would have to be together to be correct. Effin FED.

That's a misread by me. Poor wording but it's a different sit.

[Slippery Fish]

Thanks for the find, @jimurrayalterego. I missed 5.1.1.N when I was studying the questions. I looked in the rule 8 case plays, but didn't think to look in rule 5. I agree that the wording of the rules contradicts the case plays is "confusing", but now I at least have confirmation of how FED wants this play officiated.

2 hours ago, MAUmpire said:

Clearly it’s “E. All the of above” 😬
 

But can anyone explain why there can’t be interference after the batted ball hits the base?

The reason the runner isn't out is because he's in foul territory, not because the ball hit the base. The ball bouncing off the base is just one of the few ways a runner in foul territory could conceivably be hit by a fair ball.

[MAUmpire]

36 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

Thanks for the find, @jimurrayalterego. I missed 5.1.1.N when I was studying the questions. I looked in the rule 8 case plays, but didn't think to look in rule 5. I agree that the wording of the rules contradicts the case plays is "confusing", but now I at least have confirmation of how FED wants this play officiated.

The reason the runner isn't out is because he's in foul territory, not because the ball hit the base. The ball bouncing off the base is just one of the few ways a runner in foul territory could conceivably be hit by a fair ball.

Thank you! I appreciate that your original question was about calling the rule as written, not the wisdom of the rule. But my gut response is that your original thinking on the test would be correct in a just (OBR or Fed) world.

My question (poorly worded above) is, can anyone justify why we should protect runners in foul territory here? Or, why does the location of the runner matter once the ball is fair? Once the ball hits the base, it’s fair. If it then hits the runner in front of a fielder trying to make a play…why should the call be any different from the same situation (contact with a batted ball in front of a fielder making a play, interference by OBR 6.01(a)11) with the runner in fair territory? Are we just assuming a ball caroming off the base into foul territory is a hit and we don’t want to unjustly benefit the defense?

[Richvee]

Just to expand. FED has a caseplay and says the ball is live. Does NCAA or OBR have any guidance on this? 

[Slippery Fish]

Gotcha, @MAUmpire, I misunderstood what you were getting at with your question.

Short answer: because the rules say so 😁

Longer answer: Philosophically, I’m not sure why this situation is different than a ball bouncing of 2nd base and hitting R2, for example. My speculation is that the “in fair territory” provision is there to protect runners on 3rd from being called out on an otherwise foul ball. I honestly think this is just an edge case that whoever wrote the rules didn’t think to flesh out. Other than deflecting off a fielder, I can’t think of a single other situation where a runner would be hit by a fair ball in foul territory, and I think it’s highly unlikely that any of us ever see the situation in the OP actually occur.

[jimurrayalterego]

29 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Just to expand. FED has a caseplay and says the ball is live. Does NCAA or OBR have any guidance on this? 

Nothing other than they both specify "in fair territory." NCAA might have addressed it additionally in a test question or on Arbiter or Refquest but good luck researching that.

[Tog Gee]

1 hour ago, MAUmpire said:

My question (poorly worded above) is, can anyone justify why we should protect runners in foul territory here?

Maybe it's similar to being hit with a deflected ball.

Or it's being made clear that if R3 leads off into foul territory their safe from unintentional contact. Don't lead off in fair territory. Maybe fair ball hitting foul runner happens a dozen times a year across the country?

Ball doesn't even have to hit a base:

 

Edited March 24, 2025 by Tog Gee

[MAUmpire]

Thanks @Slippery Fish and @Tog Gee -- agreed that the chances of this happening are vanishingly small but thanks for offering help anyway. I like "runners in foul territory can't be called out for unintentional contact with a batted ball" as an organizing principle here.

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, noumpere said:

It was there in 2017.  Probably earlier.

 

a runner is out when hit by a fair batted ball in fair territory.  I agree FED could be more clear.

It's also in a 2010 interp:

 

SITUATION 4: R1 is at third base and is taking his lead a few feet down the line in foul ground. B2 hits a sharp ground ball that hits third base and caroms off the base and (a) hits R1 accidentally, or (b) R1 intentionally moves so that he is hit by the fair ball. RULING: In (a), the ball remains live and in play. In (b), the ball is dead, R1 is out for his interference and other runner(s) are returned to the base they occupied at the time of the interference. B2 is awarded first base. (8-4-2k, 2-5-1e)