NCAA Delayed Dead Ball FPSR

[johnnyg08]

I was on a call back and September regarding NCAA Baseball Rules changes and one surprised me. 

On fields that don't offer replay, what benefit is there in delayed dead on this if there's nothing to review since we don't have replay on our fields? 

I can understand the rule for the "Big Time" stuff...but I can't see the benefit of going delayed dead if there's no replay available. 

What's been the chatter around this? 

[Richvee]

I was at a 3 man clinic in October and they made us drill this new mechanic. The question came up about non replay games, and the answer was "Do it so it becomes second nature if and when you ever work a replay game."

It's not a very long pause, and it does give you another beat or two to process what you just saw. 

[johnnyg08]

8 minutes ago, Richvee said:

"Do it so it becomes second nature if and when you ever work a replay game."

I suppose that's the expected response...however in our part of the country, there's a 0% chance anyone will be working replay games. 

I mean, it will essentially be the same result...it just doesn't make sense to umpire it this way when the sole purpose of the change is to accommodate replay (which is a good thing for replay games). 

It's not that big of a deal...but just a thing that we have to work through. I think we'll catch some flack for calling it "when it didn't have an impact on the back end" OR umpires incorrectly passing on it because it didn't have an impact on the play. 

Thanks for the response. 

[Replacematt]

26 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I suppose that's the expected response...however in our part of the country, there's a 0% chance anyone will be working replay games. 

There's a not-insignificant number of schools in your area that use replay. Some might even surprise you (or maybe not.)

But also keep in mind the postseason--umpires might not have a replay game all year and then encounter it then.

[johnnyg08]

20 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

There's a not-insignificant number of schools in your area that use replay. Some might even surprise you (or maybe not.)

But also keep in mind the postseason--umpires might not have a replay game all year and then encounter it then.

I get it. It's just not that big of an adjustment...but the rule has literally been changed for replay...(which is a good change) if there's no replay there's no reason to wait until the completion of the play. What I think will happen is that more umpires will pass on this because they'll incorrectly officiate it as it "not having an impact on the play" 

We'll see. There's no harm in trying it. 

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I get it. It's just not that big of an adjustment...but the rule has literally been changed for replay...(which is a good change) if there's no replay there's no reason to wait until the completion of the play. What I think will happen is that more umpires will pass on this because they'll incorrectly officiate it as it "not having an impact on the play" 

We'll see. There's no harm in trying it. 

And when you say that, it makes me wonder if that is part of its intent (or at least an enhanced feature,) with what constitutes an FPSR violation in NCAA. Is this also a way to build in time for one to consider if there was a safety or interference component and not just an issue with a runner's actions irrespective of impact?

[JSam21]

Mechanically speaking, lets just treat it like type 2 obstruction. Point at it, announce it, keep officiating. 

Johnny brings up a VERY good point about people "passing" on following through when the back end gets completed. We need to remember to still follow through with the mechanic/enforcement, even if the back end gets completed. If we don't, it is going to come back to bite us in an important situation.

[Richvee]

Thinking about a two man college game, this can indeed turn awkward…… It’s only you on the infield (yes, your plate guy can grab FPSR, but for the sake of argument let’s say he doesn’t). Out at 2B, you see a clear illegal slide, (or no slide)….. I’m supposed to turn to 1b, make a call on the BR, (let’s assume he’s safe by a good margin), then call time, then go back and call FPSR and the BR out.   
When OHC comes out and say “why did you call him safe first? My answer is “So I do it right when I have a game with replay”?  That’s weak. 
It works in 3 man, because you have two umpires with distinct responsibilities and everyone knows the interference will overrule the safe call at 1b. 
 

“Out/Safe/Time, no, that was FPSR/ BR you’re out”. …… All by one umpire?🤔

[Replacematt]

57 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Thinking about a two man college game, this can indeed turn awkward…… It’s only you on the infield (yes, your plate guy can grab FPSR, but for the sake of argument let’s say he doesn’t). Out at 2B, you see a clear illegal slide, (or no slide)….. I’m supposed to turn to 1b, make a call on the BR, (let’s assume he’s safe by a good margin), then call time, then go back and call FPSR and the BR out.   
When OHC comes out and say “why did you call him safe first? My answer is “So I do it right when I have a game with replay”?  That’s weak. 
It works in 3 man, because you have two umpires with distinct responsibilities and everyone knows the interference will overrule the safe call at 1b. 
 

“Out/Safe/Time, no, that was FPSR/ BR you’re out”. …… All by one umpire?🤔

It's simple.

If you're making a call of safe at the advance base, then you didn't have FPSR. The mechanic is to point at the infraction, then make the call at the other base(s). 

I would also posit it would be very rare to have a lead runner safe while committing an FPSR violation and to have a throw to a following base.

And if we do, we empathize with the coach, explain there are two rulings we make on that runner and one gets enforced at the end of the play. Use the rule as a tool, not an obstacle.

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

Thinking about a two man college game, this can indeed turn awkward…… It’s only you on the infield (yes, your plate guy can grab FPSR, but for the sake of argument let’s say he doesn’t). Out at 2B, you see a clear illegal slide, (or no slide)….. I’m supposed to turn to 1b, make a call on the BR, (let’s assume he’s safe by a good margin), then call time, then go back and call FPSR and the BR out.   
When OHC comes out and say “why did you call him safe first? My answer is “So I do it right when I have a game with replay”?  That’s weak. 
It works in 3 man, because you have two umpires with distinct responsibilities and everyone knows the interference will overrule the safe call at 1b. 
 

“Out/Safe/Time, no, that was FPSR/ BR you’re out”. …… All by one umpire?🤔

"By rule it is a delayed dead ball. I have to finish officiating the play as it happens then enforce the penalty for the violation of the force play slide rule." Then we walk away...

[MadMax]

I’m sure the Coaches’ Advocate(s) beseeched the Rules Committee to include this. I understand their perspective – NCAA FPSR has become much more a technical than an interpretive rule, and we (umpires) ain’t perfect. 
If, in fact, a U2 or U3 missed this, or misinterpreted it such that video review did flip it, then whatever occurred at 1B would stand, as they say. This also includes potential scoring plays! 

This does create an odd scenario… and maybe this is covered by calling it, and standing firm to “delayed dead ball”. Say we have R1-R3, 0 Outs. Say we have a smash to F5 or F6, and the throw (or play, if F6) goes to 2B to retire R1. R1 commits a FPSR violation, but the fielder, instead of throwing on to 1B, instead notices R3 headed to the plate, and throws to F2 for a play, or a rundown… and R3 is (eventually) tagged Out. 
Is the FPSR violation enforced? How many out? And, just as importantly, who is Out, and where are they placed? 

[johnnyg08]

37 minutes ago, MadMax said:

I’m sure the Coaches’ Advocate(s) beseeched the Rules Committee to include this. I understand their perspective – NCAA FPSR has become much more a technical than an interpretive rule, and we (umpires) ain’t perfect. 
If, in fact, a U2 or U3 missed this, or misinterpreted it such that video review did flip it, then whatever occurred at 1B would stand, as they say. This also includes potential scoring plays! 

This does create an odd scenario… and maybe this is covered by calling it, and standing firm to “delayed dead ball”. Say we have R1-R3, 0 Outs. Say we have a smash to F5 or F6, and the throw (or play, if F6) goes to 2B to retire R1. R1 commits a FPSR violation, but the fielder, instead of throwing on to 1B, instead notices R3 headed to the plate, and throws to F2 for a play, or a rundown… and R3 is (eventually) tagged Out. 
Is the FPSR violation enforced? How many out? And, just as importantly, who is Out, and where are they placed? 

I think it would have to be applied as it always has. Two outs, including the batter-runner and runners return to their TOP base(s). 

[JSam21]

11 hours ago, MadMax said:

I’m sure the Coaches’ Advocate(s) beseeched the Rules Committee to include this. I understand their perspective – NCAA FPSR has become much more a technical than an interpretive rule, and we (umpires) ain’t perfect. 
If, in fact, a U2 or U3 missed this, or misinterpreted it such that video review did flip it, then whatever occurred at 1B would stand, as they say. This also includes potential scoring plays! 

This does create an odd scenario… and maybe this is covered by calling it, and standing firm to “delayed dead ball”. Say we have R1-R3, 0 Outs. Say we have a smash to F5 or F6, and the throw (or play, if F6) goes to 2B to retire R1. R1 commits a FPSR violation, but the fielder, instead of throwing on to 1B, instead notices R3 headed to the plate, and throws to F2 for a play, or a rundown… and R3 is (eventually) tagged Out. 
Is the FPSR violation enforced? How many out? And, just as importantly, who is Out, and where are they placed? 

 

10 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I think it would have to be applied as it always has. Two outs, including the batter-runner and runners return to their TOP base(s). 

Is the change going to create a handful of messes? Sure. That's when we use our "soft skills" and lead on the field. 

 

The rule book is written for the top tier of play and all of their toys. In reality, it doesn't change much for the vast majority of us who work the college game. 

[grayhawk]

I just hope Billy puts out some really good videos on all of this so we go into the season well prepared to deal with any scenario.

[Replacematt]

On 12/11/2024 at 8:28 PM, johnnyg08 said:

I think it would have to be applied as it always has. Two outs, including the batter-runner and runners return to their TOP base(s). 

This is the result that was put out by Randy today.

Any time there is FPSR, the enforcement will be the same as it has been, regardless of if the second out is attempted, or on whom it is attempted.

[Replacematt]

So...

I've had this exactly once this season. And I did let the play go on...sort of.

It was a JUCO/academy exhibition game, without video review. R1 went to the outfield side of 2B standing up, directly in the path of F4, who airmailed it over F3. I signaled it immediately on the throw, but when the throw hit the fence, I killed it. I wouldn't have done this in an NCAA game, but I felt it better to get both outs immediately than pull BR off of 3B.