USSSA Fastpitch appeal

[Miller708]

Scenario under USSSA Fastpitch Softball rules 14U:

Zero outs, runners on 1st and 2nd.  Runners go on pitchers release. Ball hit to shallow right field where right fielder makes a running, diving and rolling catch and presents the ball.  The runners reach and stop on 2nd and 3rd respectively.  The batter/runner is not signaled out by either the base umpire or the plate umpire.

After the catch the ball is thrown to 1st base then 2nd base.  Umpires then signal triple play.

Offensive coach makes an appeal that with no signal by either umpire he could not send his runners back to tag up following the catch, but is not recognized by the officials until after the infielders and pitcher exit fair territory and catcher leaves her position.

Upon review, umpires invoke Infield Fly and signal batter/runner out while returning the runners safely to 1st and 2nd base.

Am I incorrect in reading the 2024 USSSA Fastpitch rules that:

A) The protest under Rule 9 Sec. 4(B) "That appeals must be made at the end of an inning, before all infielders have left fair territory and the catcher vacated normal fielding position" was made too late to be given any consideration by the umpires OR that

B) Under Rule 9 Sec. 6(A) "A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if: She has advanced, touched and remains on a base beyond the base missed...

Not to mention C) that a running, diving and rolling catch was interpreted as being included in the definition of Infield Fly as a ball caught with "ordinary effort."

 

[Jimurray]

32 minutes ago, Miller708 said:

Scenario under USSSA Fastpitch Softball rules 14U:

Zero outs, runners on 1st and 2nd.  Runners go on pitchers release. Ball hit to shallow right field where right fielder makes a running, diving and rolling catch and presents the ball.  The runners reach and stop on 2nd and 3rd respectively.  The batter/runner is not signaled out by either the base umpire or the plate umpire.

After the catch the ball is thrown to 1st base then 2nd base.  Umpires then signal triple play.

Offensive coach makes an appeal that with no signal by either umpire he could not send his runners back to tag up following the catch, but is not recognized by the officials until after the infielders and pitcher exit fair territory and catcher leaves her position.

Upon review, umpires invoke Infield Fly and signal batter/runner out while returning the runners safely to 1st and 2nd base.

Am I incorrect in reading the 2024 USSSA Fastpitch rules that:

A) The protest under Rule 9 Sec. 4(B) "That appeals must be made at the end of an inning, before all infielders have left fair territory and the catcher vacated normal fielding position" was made too late to be given any consideration by the umpires OR that

B) Under Rule 9 Sec. 6(A) "A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if: She has advanced, touched and remains on a base beyond the base missed...

Not to mention C) that a running, diving and rolling catch was interpreted as being included in the definition of Infield Fly as a ball caught with "ordinary effort."

 

A) You can only protest a rule error not a judgement error. You can ask what the judgement of the umpires was and ask if they would get together and see if they missed something. They do not have to do that.

B) Not relevant.

C) You do not say whether an infielder could have caught the ball with ordinary effort but was called off by the outfielder using extra ordinary effort.

'Upon review, umpires invoke Infield Fly and signal batter/runner out while returning the runners safely to 1st and 2nd base" No matter what they kicked any applicable rule.

 

[beerguy55]

 

10 hours ago, Miller708 said:

Am I incorrect in reading the 2024 USSSA Fastpitch rules that:

Yes, you are incorrect.

 

A. What you are describing is not an "appeal" for the purposes of that rule - read Section 1 of that rule to understand the types of appeals that apply.  (namely missed base or left early on tag up)   If you are talking about a "protest" see rule 13.  As mentioned above you may not protest judgment calls.   Otherwise, you may ask the umpire to get help on the call and they are under no obligation to do so.

B. You are conveniently omitting "and the ball becomes dead" - the rule isn't relevant here.

C. Not relevant - the rule requires the umpire to determine whether or not an infielder COULD make the catch with ordinary effort, which is also a judgment call.   That an outfielder made a great diving catch doesn't really matter...did he have to make such a catch because the second baseman was standing around with his thumb up his ass?

 

10 hours ago, Miller708 said:

Runners go on pitchers release. Ball hit to shallow right field where right fielder makes a running, diving and rolling catch and presents the ball.  The runners reach and stop on 2nd and 3rd respectively.  The batter/runner is not signaled out by either the base umpire or the plate umpire.

As a coach, I can say that this is either risk/reward (and accept the consequences) or simply needing to coach better. If it looks like a catch to me I'm calling the players back to their base.  Yes, we need umpires to communicate better in announcing the catch or no catch, but it's not always possible to do so as quickly as you'd like.   However, sure, coach argues he couldn't send runners back not knowing if it was caught, if the reverse had happened, and he sent the runners back and then the outfielder threw to third then second to force them out, he'd simply make the opposite argument about not knowing it wasn't caught.  It's a convenient position to be in.  The reality is, an umpire can't make a call instantaneously, nor should he - they need to make sure the fielder maintains control, so in that second or two the runner does need to make a decision and live with it.

 

Frankly, whether or not it's supported by rule or judgment, the umpires' ruling is the most "fair" - it's the most likely outcome if they had called IFF early...and it's a possible outcome if they had called a catch earlier.

SH*# happens.

[BigBlue4u]

I believe the simplest way out of this mess is to declare an umpire error (umpires failed to declare a catch/no catch) call the batter out and return the runners to bases occupied TOP.

[Miller708]

I see now.  A more appropriate counter argument is Rule 11 Sec 2(R) no arguing balls/strikes or judgment calls.

 

Thank you all for weighing in.

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, Miller708 said:

I see now.  A more appropriate counter argument is Rule 11 Sec 2(R) no arguing balls/strikes or judgment calls.

 

Thank you all for weighing in.

We have occasionally on this site had fans not happy with a call and find non relevant verbiage in a rule book they just have opened for the first time. Now you see the need for you to read the book from cover to cover. 

[The Man in Blue]

… and if told the umpire did signal and asked if he saw the umpire’s signal, the coach will say no, he was watching the play/his runners.

If asked about IFF when the umpire did call it, the coach will argue the umpire didn’t yell it loud enough as he didn’t hear it.

If asked anything, the coach is going to look for the bail out for his error in not watching the element he should have been watching.

Working a FP national tournament this weekend.  A very fast runner steals second.  Coach starts screaming that the runner left early (she did not) and didn’t even see that his catcher had her gunned by two steps (the second baseman muffed the ball into center field).

The simple truth is most coaches are like an international business making billions of dollars: always looking for a “bail out.”

The correct call was the original call and nothing should have been changed.  Absence of a signal is not absence of a play.

[Jay R.]

8 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

… and if told the umpire did signal and asked if he saw the umpire’s signal, the coach will say no, he was watching the play/his runners.

If asked about IFF when the umpire did call it, the coach will argue the umpire didn’t yell it loud enough as he didn’t hear it.

If asked anything, the coach is going to look for the bail out for his error in not watching the element he should have been watching.

Yeah, IFF in youth ball almost always leads to some argument. I was working our local rec Bronco (U12) championship as U1 and the best player in the league came up with the bases loaded and no one out. He absolutely skied a popup between home and first base. The plate umpire and I both took a beat to read the play, saw the pitcher move under it, and simultaneously signaled and called "Infield fly!" (I added "if fair," but I digress.) The pitcher took his eye off the ball as it came down well into fair territory and it clanged off his glove. I emphatically signaled and verbalized "Batter's out! Infield fly!" has he approached first base, given the age group. First base coach is screaming at his runners to run, and R3 is tagged out by the pitcher halfway to the plate. 

There was nothing ejection worthy but the offensive team tried everything---"No one signaled!" "I didn't hear anyone!" "No one said the batter was out!"---despite the fact that I know I signaled and verbalized and saw and heard the plate umpire do the same.

Offensive team won handily anyway.

[beerguy55]

On 7/19/2024 at 7:57 PM, Miller708 said:

I see now.  A more appropriate counter argument is Rule 11 Sec 2(R) no arguing balls/strikes or judgment calls.

 

Thank you all for weighing in.

You are allowed to get clarification on judgment calls, (blue, did someone call a catch?) and are allowed to request the umpire who made the call to see if his partners saw something he didn't.   He's not obligated to honor your request, but you can make the request...nicely.

[The Man in Blue]

I once had a needlessly angry coach come from the third base box on a possible pulled foot at first while I was in C.  He immediately started yelling, "I want to appeal that!?"

I said, "Sorry, that's not an appeal play."

He went back needlessly angry.

Later my partner said, "There was a pulled foot on that play."

My reply was, "Very well could have been, but he didn't ask me to come to you for help.  I would have been happy to do so."

Coaches, learn to ask the right questions.  Then ask questions.  Don't make stupid demands.