Two batters make three outs in an inning

[Zachary]

Nobody on, nobody out. Batter fouls one of his foot, umpire calls foul ball, but the other team plays on, does not hear this call, steps on first and assumes there is one out. Same batter comes back to the plate and draws a walk. Next batter comes up, and R1 gets caught stealing. Now there is one out, other team assumes there are two. Our batter then strikes out and the other team leaves the field. But that is only two outs. Umpires convene and decide that the second batter actually struck out earlier in the at-bat, stayed at the plate, and thus we batted out of order. The foul ball controversy ends up being a red herring and means nothing. I cannot see this any other way besides being a botched call. What is going on here? Is it even possible for two batters to ever make three outs? I was the offensive coach. 

[Zachary]

Both scorekeepers did not have our batter ever striking out, but were never consulted or asked for what they had by the umpires. 

[Mudisfun]

The defense running off the field and the lack of protest from the offense Jedi mind-tricked the officials into believing they missed and out. This is one of those situations when the offensive coach needs to go to the officials and walk through the outs to get it right. If they do not reset, file a protest for a misapplication of the rules, since by rule each 1/2 inning consists of 3 outs which in your case did not occur. 

Also, batting out of order... once the next batter came up and took a pitch, that would have legalized that 2nd at bat, so there is nothing there.

Crew used that new rule book we all love to hate: The Making Sh!t Up book.

[noumpere]

10 minutes ago, Zachary said:

Nobody on, nobody out. Batter fouls one of his foot, umpire calls foul ball, but the other team does not hear this call and assumes there is one out. Same batter comes back to the plate and draws a walk. Next batter comes up, and R1 gets caught stealing. Now there is one out, other team assumes there are two. Our batter then strikes out and the other team leaves the field. But that is only two outs. Umpires convene and decide that our batter actually struck out earlier in the at-bat, stayed at the plate, and thus we batted out of order. The foul ball controversy ends up being a red herring and means nothing. I cannot see this any other way besides being a botched call. What is going on here? Is it even possible for two batters to ever make three outs?

The second batter (who struck out and then batted out of order) did not make two outs.  He struck out.  The person who followed him in the order (and failed to bat) made the third out.

 

The person who follows the batter who "MYTAB" (Missed Your Turn At Bat) leads off the next inning.

 

(Assuming all the facts are accurate.)

[Zachary]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

The second batter (who struck out and then batted out of order) did not make two outs.  He struck out.  The person who followed him in the order (and failed to bat) made the third out.

 

The person who follows the batter who "MYTAB" (Missed Your Turn At Bat) leads off the next inning.

 

(Assuming all the facts are accurate.)

Yes, that is true, but two batters came to the plate and made three outs. That is also true. 

[Zachary]

2 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

The defense running off the field and the lack of protest from the offense Jedi mind-tricked the officials into believing they missed and out. This is one of those situations when the offensive coach needs to go to the officials and walk through the outs to get it right. If they do not reset, file a protest for a misapplication of the rules, since by rule each 1/2 inning consists of 3 outs which in your case did not occur. 

I was the offensive coach. The umpire was definitely confused with the other team running off the field. I pleaded to check with the scorekeepers, who did not have our batter striking out, but he checked with his partner and they made the decision on their own. Their argument was that the third out was our second hitter staying up to bat after he struck out, thus we hit out of order. Mind you there was no sort of strike three signal or anything of that nature earlier in the at bat. 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Zachary said:

Yes, that is true, but two batters came to the plate and made three outs. That is also true. 

Two *players* (individuals) came to the plate, representing three *batters* (spots in the batting order)

[Coach Carl]

Two batters making three outs is possible.  With the strike out not being obvious, the mechanics and explanation you recieved are puzzling.  If the umpires truly did think your B1 struck out and didn't recognize that B1 stayed up to bat, then it appears the umpires reached the correct conclusion but not for the correct reason. 

B1 strikes out.  1 out.  However, B1 doesn't think he is out so he stays up to bat.  The umpires and defense do not recognize this.  The offense thinks his at bat is continuing, however he is now batting out of order.  If the umpires recognize the problem they can inform the batter that he struck out and try to alleviate the confusion. If they don't take that action, then we now have a Batting Out of Order situation.  This offensive violation is only correctable by an appeal from the defense.       

Now B1 walks.  Once the defense delivers the first pitch to B2, the BOO on the walk by B1 can no longer be appealed.    He is legally on 1st and we play on.  B1 steals second and is thrown out.  2 outs.  

B2 is retired.  3 outs.  Two batters, three outs.

In your sitch, the caught stealing was the second out, not the umpires retroactively applying the Batting Out of Order violation.   It appears from your description that the defense going off the field brought the situation to light and the umps had to rule on it.  They applied the BOO rule but it was too late.  He was out on the K and then out on the caught stealing, not on BOO.   

Lots of wacky things happen in 12U rec ball.  Use it as a learning experience for you and your team.  Inexperienced rec umpires need time and patience to learn and get better, just like your players do.  Help them.

[Zachary]

35 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

Two batters making three outs is possible.  With the strike out not being obvious, the mechanics and explanation you recieved are puzzling.  If the umpires truly did think your B1 struck out and didn't recognize that B1 stayed up to bat, then it appears the umpires reached the correct conclusion but not for the correct reason. 

B1 strikes out.  1 out.  However, B1 doesn't think he is out so he stays up to bat.  The umpires and defense do not recognize this.  The offense thinks his at bat is continuing, however he is now batting out of order.  If the umpires recognize the problem they can inform the batter that he struck out and try to alleviate the confusion. If they don't take that action, then we now have a Batting Out of Order situation.  This offensive violation is only correctable by an appeal from the defense.       

Now B1 walks.  Once the defense delivers the first pitch to B2, the BOO on the walk by B1 can no longer be appealed.    He is legally on 1st and we play on.  B1 steals second and is thrown out.  2 outs.  

B2 is retired.  3 outs.  Two batters, three outs.

In your sitch, the caught stealing was the second out, not the umpires retroactively applying the Batting Out of Order violation.   It appears from your description that the defense going off the field brought the situation to light and the umps had to rule on it.  They applied the BOO rule but it was too late.  He was out on the K and then out on the caught stealing, not on BOO.   

Lots of wacky things happen in 12U rec ball.  Use it as a learning experience for you and your team.  Inexperienced rec umpires need time and patience to learn and get better, just like your players do.  Help them.

A couple clarifications. It was actually the second batter that they ruled struck out and stayed at the plate, not the first batter. The first batter walked while the other team thought he grounded out (while it was really a foul ball). So the caught stealing was out number one, then outs two and three (according to the umpires) occurred with the second batter. 

This was also not 12U rec, it was a 14U travel tournament, for what it's worth. 

Thirdly, our batter did not actually strike out, and I think the umpires knew that (even though that is what they called). I believe they got confused by the other team running off the field and were forced to come up with a third out, and that's what we got. 

I talked to them about it, but I'm not in the business of making a scene. They got it wrong, we moved on and won the game. 

[Zachary]

39 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Two *players* (individuals) came to the plate, representing three *batters* (spots in the batting order)

True. So is there zero obligation for the umpires to make the batter aware of the strikeout? Nobody knew he struck out, even the scorekeepers. It was a phantom call. But even putting that point aside, assuming he did really strike out, the umpire simply *should* make the player aware of it, but doesn't *have to* make the player aware of it?

[The Man in Blue]

 

14u travel vs. 12u rec doesn't even matter, because most of the time it is the same Ole Smittys and Faded Navy Franks calling those games.  Heck, I worked a national 18u softball tournament with guys who had never called softball.

 

4 minutes ago, Zachary said:

True. So is there zero obligation for the umpires to make the batter aware of the strikeout? Nobody knew he struck out, even the scorekeepers. It was a phantom call. But even putting that point aside, assuming he did really strike out, the umpire simply *should* make the player aware of it, but doesn't *have to* make the player aware of it?

How would the umpires make the batter aware when the umpires didn't even know?  😋

I'm still trying to figure out why the defense thought a foul ball off the foot was an out.

[Zachary]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

How would the umpires make the batter aware when the umpires didn't even know?  😋

I'm still trying to figure out why the defense thought a foul ball off the foot was an out.

I guess you're right, if the umpires had no idea, they couldn't tell the player! But that just proves they made it up, which is the likely scenario. 

The other team thought it was an out because it was one of those off the foot that rolled out pretty good toward first base, and I guess the umpire did not make an assertive foul call, although it seemed obvious to me. 

[The Man in Blue]

2 minutes ago, Zachary said:

I guess you're right, if the umpires had no idea, they couldn't tell the player! But that just proves they made it up, which is the likely scenario. 

The other team thought it was an out because it was one of those off the foot that rolled out pretty good toward first base, and I guess the umpire did not make an assertive foul call, although it seemed obvious to me. 

So . . . they "made a play" and the base umpire called him . . . ??

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, Zachary said:

True. So is there zero obligation for the umpires to make the batter aware of the strikeout?

The umnpires are not to make anyone aware of a potential BOO situation.

[Zachary]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

The umnpires are not to make anyone aware of a potential BOO situation.

I was referencing making the batter aware that he struck out. 

[Zachary]

7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

So . . . they "made a play" and the base umpire called him . . . ??

Base umpire made no call, as it was a foul ball. The other team just assumed it was an out without any such indication. 

[Coach Carl]

22 hours ago, Zachary said:

A couple clarifications. It was actually the second batter that they ruled struck out and stayed at the plate, not the first batter. The first batter walked while the other team thought he grounded out (while it was really a foul ball). So the caught stealing was out number one, then outs two and three (according to the umpires) occurred with the second batter. 

This was also not 12U rec, it was a 14U travel tournament, for what it's worth. 

Thirdly, our batter did not actually strike out, and I think the umpires knew that (even though that is what they called). I believe they got confused by the other team running off the field and were forced to come up with a third out, and that's what we got. 

I talked to them about it, but I'm not in the business of making a scene. They got it wrong, we moved on and won the game. 

Well, now I am even more confused.  I think your strategy of "I talked to them about it, but I'm not in the business of making a scene" is about the only one you could follow to keep the game on track.  In most situations, once you get an explanation you have two choices, protest or move on.  You chose move on.  A protest may have been able to get another neutral person involved which might have gotten it all untangled.   But that might have taken 10-15 minutes.  I assume you were dealing with time limits so moving on is the best course just to get more baseball played.  

[BigBlue4u]

On 6/7/2024 at 8:46 AM, Zachary said:

Nobody on, nobody out. Batter fouls one of his foot, umpire calls foul ball, but the other team plays on, does not hear this call, steps on first and assumes there is one out

This one is easy. Ignore everything that happened after the ball hits the batter's foot.  Bring the batter back up with a strike added to the count. (Provided he had less than two strikes at the time the ball hit his foot.)