Feint After Pitcher "Disengagement"

[Slippery Fish]

Had a situation come up this weekend where I disagreed with my partner about a call and wanted to get some feedback on it. I've seen that this has been litigated before on UE so I'm sorry for making a repeat topic, but I'm having a bit of a crisis of confidence on my ability to correctly call balks and would like some help.

Context: 14U Tournament, USSSA Rules

Situation: R1 and pitcher in the stretch. Pitcher comes set and then makes a move similar to a jabsteb, except his pivot foot landed completely behind (as in towards 2nd base) the rubber and he raised his arm feinting a throw to 1st. My partner (BU) calls a balk and advances the runner. I didn't say anything at the time b/c I didn't want to look like I was undermining my partner, plus he's more experienced than me so I didn't want to make a fool of myself. I had a discussion with him b/w innings where I let him know that I disagreed with the call b/c I thought as long as a pitcher's pivot foot "disengaged" that he could feint all he wants. He disagreed and explained that he thought you could step back with you pivot foot, but once you made the feint it's a balk. 

After surfing UE I think he may have been closer to correct than I was, and it seems like it comes down to deciding what constitutes disengaging the rubber. To date, as long as the pitcher's pivot food landed behind the rubber I haven't been balking anyone for feinting, but that approach seems to be heavily challenged. Can the pitcher make any sort of movement where he feints and disengages simultaneously (jump turn, jab step), or does he have to disengage, pause, and then make a feint?

FWIW I think I've only seen this called one other time at the level I work (14U and below), most of the time no one bats an eye. But, I'd like to work older baseball if I get the opportunity so I'm curious if this is more commonly balked in HS age games.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Slippery Fish said:

Had a situation come up this weekend where I disagreed with my partner about a call and wanted to get some feedback on it. I've seen that this has been litigated before on UE so I'm sorry for making a repeat topic, but I'm having a bit of a crisis of confidence on my ability to correctly call balks and would like some help.

Context: 14U Tournament, USSSA Rules

Situation: R1 and pitcher in the stretch. Pitcher comes set and then makes a move similar to a jabsteb, except his pivot foot landed completely behind (as in towards 2nd base) the rubber and he raised his arm feinting a throw to 1st. My partner (BU) calls a balk and advances the runner. I didn't say anything at the time b/c I didn't want to look like I was undermining my partner, plus he's more experienced than me so I didn't want to make a fool of myself. I had a discussion with him b/w innings where I let him know that I disagreed with the call b/c I thought as long as a pitcher's pivot foot "disengaged" that he could feint all he wants. He disagreed and explained that he thought you could step back with you pivot foot, but once you made the feint it's a balk. 

After surfing UE I think he may have been closer to correct than I was, and it seems like it comes down to deciding what constitutes disengaging the rubber. To date, as long as the pitcher's pivot food landed behind the rubber I haven't been balking anyone for feinting, but that approach seems to be heavily challenged. Can the pitcher make any sort of movement where he feints and disengages simultaneously (jump turn, jab step), or does he have to disengage, pause, and then make a feint?

FWIW I think I've only seen this called one other time at the level I work (14U and below), most of the time no one bats an eye. But, I'd like to work older baseball if I get the opportunity so I'm curious if this is more commonly balked in HS age games.

A jab step or jump turn is not a disengagement no matter where the pivot foot lands. F1 can’t feint to 1B from that move. To legally disengage F1 must intentionally lift his pivot foot and place it behind the rubber as slow as or as fast as he wants. At bases where feints are allowed there is also a legal disengagement when the pivot foot come off the rubber in stepping to the base. 

[RBIbaseball]

13 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

A jab step or jump turn is not a disengagement no matter where the pivot foot lands. F1 can’t feint to 1B from that move. To legally disengage F1 must intentionally lift his pivot foot and place it behind the rubber as slow as or as fast as he wants. At bases where feints are allowed there is also a legal disengagement when the pivot foot come off the rubber in stepping to the base. 

So I had this argument with a couple umpire friends as well, and they both argued that if the foot lands behind then it's legal.

To disengage, does the pivot foot have to start moving before the free foot. "Touch" behind the pitcher plater before the free foot moves, or somewhere in-between?

Because as I understand it, a RHP jump turning to 1B (both feet moving at same time) is a balk if he feints - even if the pivot foot lands behind the pitcher's plate, correct?

[Jimurray]

9 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

So I had this argument with a couple umpire friends as well, and they both argued that if the foot lands behind then it's legal. 

To disengage, does the pivot foot have to start moving before the free foot. "Touch" behind the pitcher plater before the free foot moves, or somewhere in-between?

Because as I understand it, a RHP jump turning to 1B (both feet moving at same time) is a balk if he feints - even if the pivot foot lands behind the pitcher's plate, correct?

The jump turn and jab step are both considered as from the rubber. Your friends can argue but they are wrong with an MLBUM cite that "A pitcher who makes such a pickoff move is considered to be in contact with the rubber when he makes his throw to first base." In some legal rapid step back disengages it happens fast enough for us not to discern when hands separating or pivot foot moving happened and we leave it alone.  

[RBIbaseball]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

The jump turn and jab step are both considered as from the rubber. Your friends can argue but they are wrong with an MLBUM cite that "A pitcher who makes such a pickoff move is considered to be in contact with the rubber when he makes his throw to first base." In some legal rapid step back disengages it happens fast enough for us not to discern when hands separating or pivot foot moving happened and we leave it alone.  

So if a world where I have perfect information and going by the letter of the law...

Pivot foot has to finish disengage before hands separate?   or Pivot foot has to move before free foot?

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

So if a world where I have perfect information and going by the letter of the law...

Pivot foot has to finish disengage before hands separate?   orc

Pivot foot has to finish disengage before hands separate? Only FED codifies that but no one calls it as it is done quickly. 

 Pivot foot has to move before free foot?  If you could discern a free foot movement as the start of the pitch then the pivot foot movement would be a balk. You are going into PHD level when you seem to say you are at the High School diploma level. Get that Diploma first. 

[RBIbaseball]

27 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Pivot foot has to finish disengage before hands separate? Only FED codifies that but no one calls it as it is done quickly. 

 Pivot foot has to move before free foot?  If you could discern a free foot movement as the start of the pitch then the pivot foot movement would be a balk. You are going into PHD level when you seem to say you are at the High School diploma level. Get that Diploma first. 

Nothing I've said has been a statement, only questions. It seems like you are misunderstanding that I'm just genuinely asking... I don't know the answer because I get 10 different answers from people I know.

Obviously if the free foot starts to move, that's part of the pitch... so when is the free foot allowed to move in order to be disengaged. My understanding is -by rule- that the pivot foot has to touch behind the pitcher plate before the free foot can move, is that correct? I understand that some things aren't very discernable in real time and the pitchers play with that (for all practical purposes this is where we draw the line... blah blah), but that is the rule right?  .... and that part of the rule is essentially while the jump turn/jab step of a RHP to 1B is a balk, right? Because we can definitively see it.

 

You mentioned the hands coming apart, so I just just asked clarification... I don't see anything in the rules concerning this. I've never looked for when the hands separate, should I?

 

I prefer to try to understand the PhD level, then bring it back down to reality and apply it appropriately at the level.

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

 My understanding is -by rule- that the pivot foot has to touch behind the pitcher plate before the free foot can move, is that correct?

Yes.  Same for the hands separating.

[The Man in Blue]

Just curious (because I have called it twice in Fed this year AND we are entering silly season, I mean summer ball) . . . is there support for the jump turn being treated as "from the plate" in Fed?  (I was questioned on the call both times, but no argument was made.)

[Velho]

4 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

is there support for the jump turn being treated as "from the plate" in Fed? 

In the sense the pickoff going OOP would be 1 base vs 2?

Would seem to me, 1 base on OOP would be consistent with a balk for feinting that same move.

[The Man in Blue]

5 minutes ago, Velho said:

In the sense the pickoff going OOP would be 1 base vs 2?

Would seem to me, 1 base on OOP would be consistent with a balk for feinting that same move.

I didn't think about the OOP scenario (just the feint), so I won't disagree . . . so where can we find that support on the jump turn?  (I may be overlooking it.)

[noumpere]

6-1-3, about the middle of the paragraph.

[Velho]

8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

6-1-3, about the middle of the paragraph.

You'd get there based on that paragraph differentiating jump turn from stepping off I suppose.

6-1-3

6-2-4

 

2-28-5

[The Man in Blue]

That is what is throwing me off.  To me, that seems to support allowing the feint (i.e., treating the jump turn as a disengagement).

 

As I said, I am probably missing a piece . . . 

[Velho]

4 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

As I said, I am probably missing a piece .

It threw me off too at first. Read that and then immediately read 6-2-4-a.
 

All together it says “A pitcher can jump turn to throw or feint but it’s a balk if they feint.”

[Slippery Fish]

10 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

So if a world where I have perfect information and going by the letter of the law...

Pivot foot has to finish disengage before hands separate?   or Pivot foot has to move before free foot?

 

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

Yes.  Same for the hands separating.

Guess I can learn something new every day. In actual games in real time, what is y'all's marker of distinction between a quick disengagement followed by a feint vs. a jab step feint where the foot lands completely behind the rubber? Obviously the marker I had been using (pivot foot moves first and eventually lands behind the rubber) is not correct. Do you usually just balk feints to 1st (RHP) from the rubber that appear to happen as 1 fluid motion, or do you give the benefit of the doubt to the pitcher?

And just to make sure I'm absolutely clear about this, all that's needed to legally disengage is the pitcher places his pivot foot on the ground behind the rubber. He could step back, count 1 mississippi, and then, while still straddling the rubber, make a feint to 1st (or 2nd or 3rd...), correct?

[The Man in Blue]

So . . . 

    You can jump turn and feint

+ x (variable we are missing)

------------------------------

A feint from the plate is a balk

We are then just assuming x = jump turn is still engaged.

 

That seems (to me) to say it is a disengagement.

[Velho]

13 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

That seems (to me) to say it is a disengagement.

Depends on the precise moment we’re taking about. I’d argue,  since disengagement is explicitly addressed separately, during the throw or feint you’re engaged. AFTER the throw or feint is completed you’re disengaged.

[Slippery Fish]

Turning to @The Man in Blue's question, do you think FED 6-1-3 says that you can jump turn and feint because a feint to 3rd (LHP) without disengaging is not a balk? 

[noumpere]

Read it as "... or feinting to a base where feinting is otherwise allowed"

 

And, read it in conjunction with the immediately following clause (paraphrased)  "or disengage".

 

That (pretty clearly to me) says that a move other than stepping back (to disengage) is a move from the rubber.

 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Slippery Fish said:

 

Guess I can learn something new every day. In actual games in real time, what is y'all's marker of distinction between a quick disengagement followed by a feint vs. a jab step feint where the foot lands completely behind the rubber? Obviously the marker I had been using (pivot foot moves first and eventually lands behind the rubber) is not correct. Do you usually just balk feints to 1st (RHP) from the rubber that appear to happen as 1 fluid motion, or do you give the benefit of the doubt to the pitcer?

 

(1) it's pretty easy to tell a jab step from a step back -- don't intermingle those terms.

(2) For a step back *in practice* we want the pivot foot to move first, as you indicate.

1 hour ago, Slippery Fish said:

And just to make sure I'm absolutely clear about this, all that's needed to legally disengage is the pitcher places his pivot foot on the ground behind the rubber. He could step back, count 1 mississippi, and then, while still straddling the rubber, make a feint to 1st (or 2nd or 3rd...), correct?

(3) Correct

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, noumpere said:

And just to make sure I'm absolutely clear about this, all that's needed to legally disengage is the pitcher places his pivot foot on the ground behind the rubber. He could step back, count 1 mississippi, and then, while still straddling the rubber, make a feint to 1st (or 2nd or 3rd...), correct?

(3) Correct

Or he could in one quick motion step back, separate hands, turn and cock his feint. most of the time we cannot tell if the pivot foot landed before the hands came apart and allow this move.