"Ohtani Rule" Confusion

[BlueClue]

Hi all,

Just looking for some clarification on an interesting situation.

Coaching in a semi-pro league using OBR, when I receive the opposing teams lineup card I see they're running straight 9, opting for no DH and the pitcher batting forth. On the lineup card it lists the pitcher as "1" (Important for later).

Fast forward to top 8, the opposing team makes a pitching change, removing the starting pitcher from the mound. In the bottom of the inning, I notice the previous starting pitcher is up to bat. Following his at-bat (which he hit a 2-RBI double), I approach PU and ask if during the previous pitching change the SP was removed from the game, to which he shows me his lineup card that indicates he was. I then bring up the issue, at which point PU and BU have a discussion for several minutes. Following the conversation they come up to and say "it's the Ohtani Rule", at which point I initially ask if it should've been acknowledged on the lineup card before heading back to the dugout.

My question is does the player (in this situation the SP) need to be marked as such on the lineup card, and if so, was there a misapplication of the rule in this situation.

Again, just looking for clarification because the whole situation confused the ever-living heck out of me.

[noumpere]

OBR 5.11(b) says that the manager "should" list the player twice -- so he can be both P and DH.  Nothing (that I can find) on what happens if he doesn't do this.

NCAA indicates that if only a P is listed, it's assumed that that player is (or can be) a P/DH.  That seems like a reasonable interp for semi-pro leagues.

[The Man in Blue]

I don’t find that reasonable at all.  If he was listed ONLY as a pitcher (and coach confirmed it at the plate meeting), why are you bailing them out?

Why even require a lineup card at all?

[noumpere]

39 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I don’t find that reasonable at all.  If he was listed ONLY as a pitcher (and coach confirmed it at the plate meeting), why are you bailing them out?

Why even require a lineup card at all?

I agree that if a DH isn't listed, PU should ask if there is one, or if it's a P/DH.  That said, (almost) everyone uses a DH (or P/DH) if they can, so assuming a P/DH doesn't seem to be a problem to me

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I agree that if a DH isn't listed, PU should ask if there is one, or if it's a P/DH.  That said, (almost) everyone uses a DH (or P/DH) if they can, so assuming a P/DH doesn't seem to be a problem to me

to you or NCAA or me. I do get NFHS needing to know which defensive position is the DH.

[MadMax]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:10 AM, BlueClue said:

Coaching in a semi-pro league using OBR, when I receive the opposing teams lineup card I see they're running straight 9, opting for no DH and the pitcher batting fourth. On the lineup card it lists the pitcher as "1" (Important for later).

Was there no plate meeting? This is stuff that needs to be identified and clarified at the plate meeting. Since this is a semi-pro league, this means there’s an official-ness to this, and a mistake like this gets people fined or fired. 

If this had been a recreational league (such as MSBL, NABA, et. al.), or an amateur league pr tournament series (Perfect Game, Prospect Wire, et. al.), then lineup issues can be modified and mitigated, typically because participation is more important than penalties (and forfeits). But since this is semi-pro, this needs to be resolved; and, simply stating this is “Ohtani rule” – 8 innings late – doesn’t really hold water. From what I’ve been taught, it can’t be invoked retroactively. 

In lineup nomenclature, the employment of a DH is usually indicated either by the DH being listed in the first 9 spots, and the pitcher occupying line #10. Or, two names listed in the same field / line (typically the second name is the Pitcher). Or, two names are listed sequentially, and bracketed ] or }. Ohtani Rule would have the player indicated as DH/P or the same name would appear on Line #10 as does the listed DH. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Was there no plate meeting? This is stuff that needs to be identified and clarified at the plate meeting. Since this is a semi-pro league, this means there’s an official-ness to this, and a mistake like this gets people fined or fired. 

If this had been a recreational league (such as MSBL, NABA, et. al.), or an amateur league pr tournament series (Perfect Game, Prospect Wire, et. al.), then lineup issues can be modified and mitigated, typically because participation is more important than penalties (and forfeits). But since this is semi-pro, this needs to be resolved; and, simply stating this is “Ohtani rule” – 8 innings late – doesn’t really hold water. From what I’ve been taught, it can’t be invoked retroactively. 

In lineup nomenclature, the employment of a DH is usually indicated either by the DH being listed in the first 9 spots, and the pitcher occupying line #10. Or, two names listed in the same field / line (typically the second name is the Pitcher). Or, two names are listed sequentially, and bracketed ] or }. Ohtani Rule would have the player indicated as DH/P or the same name would appear on Line #10 as does the listed DH. 

If I discern a P/DH, a P and DH, or in NFHS a P and DefP. I cross out everything except the bating player in the first nine and the defensive player in th 10 spot when I get the lineups. If I can't discern it I ask "straight nine"? The OP doesn't say what the PU said when given the card at the plate meeting.