3-umpire mechanics: slide/reverse rotation

[pl8ump1012]

Blues,

This week I have an NFHS Postseason series, which has a three umpire crew. I haven't done three-umpire mechanics since last post season, and that was my first time. I've been studying up again, but I'm not seeing much information on a mechanic that I recall from last year: the slide or reverse rotation.

From what I gather, this is done when U1 is in A, U3 is in C, and a hit ball brings R1 around second into third (in which case, U3 takes R1 into third), and U1 "slides" in to take BR around first into second. Is this correct? Is this the only time it happens?

Thanks all!

[MadMax]

First: the term “reverse rotation” is a misnomer and malapropism. A true Rotation involves the PU; since this movement leaves the PU at the plate, it’s not a rotation. 
“Slide” – or an even better term, “Push” – is a much more effective term. 

Second: any time there is a R1, or any time there are 2 outs, U1 shall be in A. There are no rotations or slides / pushes when U1 is elsewhere (ie. B-deep). 

Third (and this is what sets up / dictates a Push): any time there is a R2 or R3 (or both), PU stays at plate*. Thus, if PU is “pinned” at Plate, then U1 won’t (need) to cover plate, so the route for him to go, if he’s going to go anywhere, is in… on a Slide or Push. 

*- Okay, there is a Double Tag Rotation, only done on R1-R2 with less than 2 outs. It behaves exactly like 2-man, made even easier for PU because if there’s a trouble ball to right, U1 will go out. Thus, PU should go to 3B on that rotation more often. 

Situations dictating a Slide / Push: 

• R1, R2 (with < 2 outs, if ball falls for Hit, perform Slide; if caught Fly, perform Double-Tag rotation)
• R1, R2, R3
• R1, R3
• R2, R3 with 2 Outs

Situation which might require a Push / Slide: 

• R3 only (and U3 goes out; same as if no Runners on, but U1 must be aware that R3 might misread at 3B, and a throw might go there). 
• R2 only with 2 Outs – this may be “solved” with a “handoff” between U3 and U1. 

In all cases, unless U3 goes out, the U1 has BR to and thru 2B, and then hands BR off to U3. Depending on where the ball is, U3 may be inside at the cutout, or in the 3BC box. 

[pl8ump1012]

@MadMaxThank you for the clear and detailed explanation. This makes a lot of sense!

[Thatsnotyou]

At least in our state….

On a hit…R1, R3 is the exact same as R1 only, so it’s a rotation with HP up to 3rd, it’s not a slide. 

HP shoulder glances to watch the touch at the plate. 

[JSam21]

On 5/27/2023 at 9:38 AM, Thatsnotyou said:

At least in our state….

On a hit…R1, R3 is the exact same as R1 only, so it’s a rotation with HP up to 3rd, it’s not a slide. 

HP shoulder glances to watch the touch at the plate. 

Here is a "key" that you can use. Unless it is a "double tag" situation (R1 & R2 with a caught fly ball), if there is a runner in scoring position PU isn't leaving the plate area. 

What you have described here is an unnecessary rotation. I'm not even sure what the reasoning behind it would be. 

 

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

What you have described here is an unnecessary rotation. I'm not even sure what the reasoning behind it would be. 

@Thatsnotyou’s state is doing that R1-R3 as a rotation due to 2-man familiarity / habit. It’s either done to “protect” U3, or to “protect” (overeager) PUs who are all “charged up” to go flying down to 3B. 

State (NFHS) associations do a lot of “protecting” of their members in lieu of focused, tailored training. 

[Thatsnotyou]

14 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Here is a "key" that you can use. Unless it is a "double tag" situation (R1 & R2 with a caught fly ball), if there is a runner in scoring position PU isn't leaving the plate area. 

What you have described here is an unnecessary rotation. I'm not even sure what the reasoning behind it would be. 

 

The reasoning is pretty obvious, no? On a clean base hit, the PU isn’t really doing much at home. It’s the same as 1st only with a guy walking home. 

[Thatsnotyou]

12 hours ago, MadMax said:

@Thatsnotyou’s state is doing that R1-R3 as a rotation due to 2-man familiarity / habit. It’s either done to “protect” U3, or to “protect” (overeager) PUs who are all “charged up” to go flying down to 3B. 

State (NFHS) associations do a lot of “protecting” of their members in lieu of focused, tailored training. 

Again, I fail to see how this is much different than 1st only. I get it, a plate touch with a guy walking home. Is that worth sacrificing what we gain when we rotate with 1st only? Honest question. 

[JSam21]

9 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

Again, I fail to see how this is much different than 1st only. I get it, a plate touch with a guy walking home. Is that worth sacrificing what we gain when we rotate with 1st only? Honest question. 

Staying at the plate, you have one umpire for each runner. U1 gets inside and takes BR to 2nd. U3 take R1 into 2nd and when R1 commits to 3rd you get outside of 3rd to take the play there. We have umpires ahead of and behind all of the runners. You aren't gaining anything by having the PU rotate up to 3rd, you do lose the touch of the plate. This push keeps runners bracketed. 

 

If you do a full rotation here, you still have one person "standing still" (U3) while having two people moving (PU and U1). If you push, you have one person standing still (PU) and two umpires moving (U1 and U3). Wouldn't we rather have the umpires not in full gear be the ones moving? Wouldn't we want the ones who have the shorter distances to cover moving? 

[JSam21]

22 hours ago, MadMax said:

@Thatsnotyou’s state is doing that R1-R3 as a rotation due to 2-man familiarity / habit. It’s either done to “protect” U3, or to “protect” (overeager) PUs who are all “charged up” to go flying down to 3B. 

State (NFHS) associations do a lot of “protecting” of their members in lieu of focused, tailored training. 

Or just the people on the field making it up as they go... which I've seen this year. 

[Marcus6]

On 5/30/2023 at 9:49 AM, MadMax said:

State (NFHS) associations do a lot of “protecting” of their members in lieu of focused, tailored training. 

LOL well said.  Lot of head scratching mechanics in many states that create more problems than they intend to avoid

Ive had the "opportunity" to work with some guys with very little understanding and experience working 3 man.   Its aggravating when they come to the game with an attitude of not caring and spending no time studying or trying to learn away from the field.  I have told less experienced guys a few things to remember is 1st to 3rd isnt like 2 man and you can stay home since U3 isnt going out from C.  

[ilyazhito]

7 hours ago, FranklinT said:

LOL well said.  Lot of head scratching mechanics in many states that create more problems than they intend to avoid

Ive had the "opportunity" to work with some guys with very little understanding and experience working 3 man.   Its aggravating when they come to the game with an attitude of not caring and spending no time studying or trying to learn away from the field.  I have told less experienced guys a few things to remember is 1st to 3rd isnt like 2 man and you can stay home since U3 isnt going out from C.  

Only if U1 goes out would there be a rotation with 1st and 3rd. Even as an inexperienced 3-man umpire, I would read the materials that my association put out, since their mechanics were in line with CCA (college) 2-man and 3-man materials. 

[Thatsnotyou]

On 5/31/2023 at 7:42 AM, JSam21 said:

Staying at the plate, you have one umpire for each runner. U1 gets inside and takes BR to 2nd. U3 take R1 into 2nd and when R1 commits to 3rd you get outside of 3rd to take the play there. We have umpires ahead of and behind all of the runners. You aren't gaining anything by having the PU rotate up to 3rd, you do lose the touch of the plate. This push keeps runners bracketed. 

 

If you do a full rotation here, you still have one person "standing still" (U3) while having two people moving (PU and U1). If you push, you have one person standing still (PU) and two umpires moving (U1 and U3). Wouldn't we rather have the umpires not in full gear be the ones moving? Wouldn't we want the ones who have the shorter distances to cover moving? 

Then why do we rotate with R1 only? Again, only difference is a plate touch on a guy walking home. The other things you covered - guys without equipment moving, shorter distances - still applies. 
 

I thought one of the points of rotating is also to stay ahead of the runners, not chase them to a base. If you push with R1/R3, U3 is chasing R1 and U1 is chasing BR. 
 

Perhaps this should be crew dependent based on who can really move and perhaps who can’t quite as well. 

[JSam21]

16 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

Then why do we rotate with R1 only? Again, only difference is a plate touch on a guy walking home. The other things you covered - guys without equipment moving, shorter distances - still applies. 
 

I thought one of the points of rotating is also to stay ahead of the runners, not chase them to a base. If you push with R1/R3, U3 is chasing R1 and U1 is chasing BR. 
 

Perhaps this should be crew dependent based on who can really move and perhaps who can’t quite as well. 

With R1 only we are keeping the runners bracketed and there is nothing immediately coming to the plate. Remember there is only one time where the PU will rotate with a runner in scoring position in the 3 umpire system. (R1/R2 less than two outs, caught fly ball in the outfield if R2 immediately returns to tag).

If you are doing it correctly, you aren't chasing anyone on a push. The read is clean through, U1 gets inside just like the 2 umpire system. U3 slides over ahead of R1. How it should look when you have a clean base hit with R3/R1 but only advancing one base, is both U1 and U3 are inside the diamond and PU is standing point of plate. 

It is much easier to come up with excuses and reasons not to do it the way the manual says to do it. 

[noumpere]

I think it's one of those mechanics issues that has gone back and forth over the years (or, maybe I was just trained the way one group wanted it done, and then got involved with another group, and then with another, etc.).

 

I just tried to to what I was told

[JSam21]

57 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I think it's one of those mechanics issues that has gone back and forth over the years (or, maybe I was just trained the way one group wanted it done, and then got involved with another group, and then with another, etc.).

 

I just tried to to what I was told

I mean... if only there was a book... a manual maybe... that organizations could use so everyone would be on the same page, regardless where they were working. Really wish they made one of those... 😏.

 

I hear this too often... "Well they aren't really mobile enough to do it that way, so we are going to do it this way." Maybe its time to not work that level of game if you physically can't run the system anymore. 

[MadMax]

6 hours ago, JSam21 said:

I mean... if only there was a book... a manual maybe... that organizations could use so everyone would be on the same page, regardless where they were working.

To be fair… 

Manuals and diagrams lack two key components – time (the speed of a batted ball, the speed of runners, the reactions of fielders as compared against the passage of time) and communication-amongst-crew. You can’t prescribe the most effective message to be relayed between crewmates, and you certainly cannot predict how much velocity a batter bats the ball with, nor how fast a given runner progresses from 1B to 2B, and then on to 3B, if at all. 

Of course, the most effective way convey these materials, with those two components included is to actually perform those movements, in real time at real speed, repetitively for best retention. This is where camps and clinics make, justify, and fund their existence. 

A compromise would be video-based training materials. However, to produce these videos is akin to stepping out into a minefield between two trenches, and the costs intimidate the benefits. Go ahead, try running a search on YouTube for a 3-man video tutorial (hint: you won’t find one, and if you do, it won’t be up for long). 

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, JSam21 said:

I mean... if only there was a book... a manual maybe... that organizations could use so everyone would be on the same page, regardless where they were working. Really wish they made one of those... 😏.

 

There are multiple manuals.  Use the one that's in effect for the games you work.  In this specific instance, one said to rotate, one said to slide (in the games I worked).

[Catch18]

To be fair… 
Manuals and diagrams lack two key components – time (the speed of a batted ball, the speed of runners, the reactions of fielders as compared against the passage of time) and communication-amongst-crew. You can’t prescribe the most effective message to be relayed between crewmates, and you certainly cannot predict how much velocity a batter bats the ball with, nor how fast a given runner progresses from 1B to 2B, and then on to 3B, if at all. 
Of course, the most effective way convey these materials, with those two components included is to actually perform those movements, in real time at real speed, repetitively for best retention. This is where camps and clinics make, justify, and fund their existence. 
A compromise would be video-based training materials. However, to produce these videos is akin to stepping out into a minefield between two trenches, and the costs intimidate the benefits. Go ahead, try running a search on YouTube for a 3-man video tutorial (hint: you won’t find one, and if you do, it won’t be up for long). 

Nicely said, Max. Speed - the major component that’s not in the manual.

I made it my first HS Regional this spring - 1 round before the all-coveted State tournament (how Ohio lays out its post season).

I’d disagree if you say there isn’t good video out there to study….just gotta know where to find it!!!! About 5 years ago I hit the rounds that start using 3-man. As an aside, I was looking to see my alma mater’s conf tournament scores and ran across a live stream by the host university (not my alma mater). They broadcast a static camera from the announcers booth - so it was an absolute perfect view to see all rotations live and at college level game speed.

You’ll see these camera angles & broadcasts at the NAIA/Juco level I surmise. Small colleges won’t sink a ton into multiple cameras, production crews, etc.

I “trained” myself the first time with 3-man by plopping down on the couch that Saturday and watching 4 9-inning games. The sweet thing now is if you can’t check it out live, schools almost everywhere have it still available -- YouTube pages for the athletics depts. Go check out their archives, it takes a bit of digging and searching, but there’s product out there to see. Find a conference, check the sched to see who hosted, hit up their social media pages.

I’m currently circling back to a project I started in ‘19 with 5 conf tournament games and logging all the various relevant plays/rotations/starting positions/etc. I hope to have it chopped up and forwarded on to our assoc. (with proper follow up to be using copyrighted material). Hope to create a good source of educational materials.