Foul ball

[Guest Jessica]

A ground ball is hit down the 3rd baseline and bounces half way up the line in foul territory and then through the magic of matrix physics bounds over third base in fair territory and then lands beyond 3rd base in foul territory. The ball has never touched anything in fair territory except for the air space. Fair or foul?

[Jimurray]

44 minutes ago, Guest Jessica said:

A ground ball is hit down the 3rd baseline and bounces half way up the line in foul territory and then through the magic of matrix physics bounds over third base in fair territory and then lands beyond 3rd base in foul territory. The ball has never touched anything in fair territory except for the air space. Fair or foul?

If totally over 3B as it crossed above, it is fair.  If partially over 3B and also foul territory we also call it fair but there is a rule problem that we ignore: "Fair....or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base," "Foul.... or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory," We won't get into balls that first fall past the base.

[JonnyCat]

That would be a fair ball, as described. If it bounds over 3rd base, it is a fair ball.

The definition of a fair ball in OBR is found in Rule 2.00, (same in all codes) reads like this (in part): "A fair ball is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base,"

Hope that helps.

[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

That would be a fair ball, as described. If it bounds over 3rd base, it is a fair ball.

The definition of a fair ball in OBR is found in Rule 2.00, (same in all codes) reads like this (in part): "A fair ball is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base,"

Hope that helps.

It does not help if not all the ball bounds over the base. The only thing that helps is the fair definition comes alphabetically before the foul definition in the rulebook so we read that one first and call it fair. If you read OBR backwards (who would do that?) you might call a bounding ball partly over 1B OR 3B foul. I think @beerguy55 had a solution to this involving some adding the word fully or something like that. MLB/OBR hasn't taken the hint.

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

That would be a fair ball, as described. If it bounds over 3rd base, it is a fair ball.

The definition of a fair ball in OBR is found in Rule 2.00, (same in all codes) reads like this (in part): "A fair ball is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base,"

Hope that helps.

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory

 

Like @Jimurray said, we have an issue if the ball is both over fair and foul territory as it passes third base.

The nice part here is the umpire can never be wrong, I guess.

The conflict comes up again further into both definitions regarding where the ball is first touched...

 

"while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player"

"while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player"

 

My assumption is there must be a case play somewhere that says (like the strike zone), if any part of the ball is in any part of fair territory then it is fair, but just reading the rules, you get to flip a coin.

I think the simplest fix is the rule for "foul" should be modified to contain the word "fully". 

[JonnyCat]

5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Like @Jimurray said, we have an issue if the ball is both over fair and foul territory as it passes third base.

I don't have an issue if it is both over fair and foul territory as it passes 3rd base. I would just apply the same standards as a ball touching the foul line. If any part of that ball is over fair territory, then I have a fair ball. That is what I have been taught at many training's.

Think about this situation. A bounding ball that touches the foul side of 3rd base, by rule is a fair ball. It that situation, the ball is almost entirely in foul territory, but by rule, it is a fair ball if it touches the side of the bag. Now I understand that the rule explicitly states that a batted ball that touches 1st or 3rd base is fair, and the bounding over the base part is less than clear. I would just apply the same standard and not really worry about it. Yes, the rule could be more clear, but for practicality, I think that any part of the ball bounds over the bag in fair territory is fair. Seems to me that is more consistent with other batted balls being declared fair.

JMO and YMMV.

 

[beerguy55]

34 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

Seems to me that is more consistent with other batted balls being declared fair.

No argument here - like you said...a ball that touches third base or touches the "foul" pole is fair.   And I think common sense and typical known practice makes the bounding ball that's over both territories "fair".

Oddly enough, as per recent guidance in OBR I believe, by rule a ball that is on the ground 1 mm in front of the base, touching only foul territory, but the curve of the ball over the line, is still foul...if it rolls forward 1 mm and touches the base, which it inevitably would, it's fair.  If you were to roll it right 1 mm it would be fair as it would be touching the line...even though the majority of the ball would be over and/or touching foul territory.  And if you were to lift it one mm off the ground it would be fair, as part of it is over fair territory.

So even then, there's an inconsistency in the standards...between what is in the air, what is on the ground, and what is touching the base/pole.

The point was, if you follow the rule book alone (that is, if you were a baseball fundamentalist and take the rule book in it's pure form and interpret it literally), two umpires could make two different calls on the same foul/fair play, and both be right.

[JonnyCat]

10 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

The point was, if you follow the rule book alone (that is, if you were a baseball fundamentalist and take the rule book in it's pure form and interpret it literally), two umpires could make two different calls on the same foul/fair play, and both be right.

I agree, that could happen, but that could be said for many other rules, too. It's the interpretations that often provide clarity to many of the rules.

It would be nice to have an interpretation on this one. I also thought about the recent guidance you mentioned on fair/foul on the line. Similar to the home plate blocking rule, I'm not even sure that MLB even knows what they want! 

I was hoping that the Wendelstedt Umpire Manual would be able to add interpretations every so often as situations would arise. It seems to have lost traction in recent years. I think my newest edition from 2012. I don't know if there is an updated one. I thought that was really going to be the go to interp manual, I mean it still is valuable, but needs to be updated.

[Jimurray]

@beerguy55"Oddly enough, as per recent guidance in OBR I believe, by rule a ball that is on the ground 1 mm in front of the base, touching only foul territory, but the curve of the ball over the line, is still foul"

@JonnyCat"It would be nice to have an interpretation on this one.

When CCS did an article about what we thought was the weird new MLBUM interp about balls over the line being foul someone who seemed to have inside info posted in the comments that the interp only applied to balls that first touched past the base and fully complied with the verbiage of the fair/foul definitions, the "first falls" verbiage causing the interp. A round ball landing on a solid flat surface will not have touched a line if less than half is over the line. We ignore white blades of grass and compressible dirt and so if half the ball hasn't caught the line in the outfield it is foul. While we still have the definitions conflict prior to the base I think we all have a fair ball if any part is over the line or base.