Ask UEFL - Batter-Runner's 1B Miss Can Be Covert Appeal

[Lindsay]

After Athletics batter Chad Pinder grounded out to Mariners first baseman Ty France, we were asked to further examine 1B Umpire John Libka's out call as the runner missed first base, turning this into an appeal play that may have appeared so subtle it looked like a standard out at first. This Ask...

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[The Man in Blue]

This is interesting, as I'm not sure I would even consider this as an appeal play.  While it technically meets the definition, this just feels weird.  While avoiding the tag, he batter-runner's momentum carried him away from the base and he immediately corrected himself back to the bag.  He didn't really run (or slide) past it and miss it.

Let's say it is the same play, but the fielder cannot get up quick enough and sees he is NOT going to beat the runner to the bag.  The fielder then yells "He missed the base!" before the batter-runner gets there.  Are you going to call him out on the verbal appeal?

I'm not disagreeing he should be out in the play that happened... I'm just casting more semantics antics when it comes to calling this an appeal play.  (Sorry, words matter.)

Great job by the umpire of adjusting and staying in position to see the action!

 

[ErichKeane]

4 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

This is interesting, as I'm not sure I would even consider this as an appeal play.  While it technically meets the definition, this just feels weird.  While avoiding the tag, he batter-runner's momentum carried him away from the base and he immediately corrected himself back to the bag.  He didn't really run (or slide) past it and miss it.

Let's say it is the same play, but the fielder cannot get up quick enough and sees he is NOT going to beat the runner to the bag.  The fielder then yells "He missed the base!" before the batter-runner gets there.  Are you going to call him out on the verbal appeal?

I'm not disagreeing he should be out in the play that happened... I'm just casting more semantics antics when it comes to calling this an appeal play.  (Sorry, words matter.)

Great job by the umpire of adjusting and staying in position to see the action!

 

I don't think a 'verbal' appeal counts, right?  The only time Verbal is good enough is NFHS, and that has to be during a dead ball AFAIK.

[The Man in Blue]

You are correct that NFHS requires a dead ball for a verbal appeal.

However, OBR ... (page 50)

Rule 5.09(c) Comment: If two runners arrive at home base about the same time and the first runner misses home plate but a second runner legally touches the plate, the runner is tagged out on his attempt to come back and touch the base or is called out, on appeal, then he shall be considered as having been put out before the second runner scored and being the third out. Second runner’s run shall not count, as provided in Rule 5.09(d). If a pitcher balks when making an appeal, such act shall be a play. An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute Rule 5.09(c) to 5.10(b) 51 an appeal. Time is not out when an appeal is being made.
 

[ErichKeane]

Not particularly up on OBR, but I thought contact with the base was still required. So JUST yelling verbally would not be enough.

My reading of that is the base must be tagged, AND make it clear it was intended/they knew they had missed the base. One way of doing that, is to verbally say "he missed the base".

I believe this is more for the similar case of: "both sides miss the base, but BR breaks for 2nd. F3 while scrambling to tag/get up/make the throw/etc inadvertently steps on the base, which does not count as an appeal.

It is ONLY an appeal if he verbally says something, or if while stepping on the base makes it clear it's an appeal (I would say, tagging the base and looking up at the ump would be enough, or stepping on the base and showing the ball, etc).

[beerguy55]

On 5/27/2022 at 9:12 AM, ErichKeane said:

Not particularly up on OBR, but I thought contact with the base was still required. So JUST yelling verbally would not be enough.

What Lindsay means in the video, I think, that nobody verbally said it was an appeal, but they don't have to.  The ump has to use some common sense to what is an obvious appeal, without the fielder telegraphing their intentions...F3 is touching the bag for only one reason, he believes B/R missed it.  That's an appeal.  Easy peasy.

[Velho]

6 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

What Lindsay means in the video, I think, that nobody verbally said it was an appeal, but they don't have to.  The ump has to use some common sense to what is an obvious appeal, without the fielder telegraphing their intentions...F3 is touching the bag for only one reason, he believes B/R missed it.  That's an appeal.  Easy peasy.

 Which is different than unintentionally (yes, we umpires have to read minds) touching first base after BR missed it

https://www.closecallsports.com/2021/08/red-sox-vs-blue-jays-missed-base-missed.html

[ErichKeane]

19 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

What Lindsay means in the video, I think, that nobody verbally said it was an appeal, but they don't have to.  The ump has to use some common sense to what is an obvious appeal, without the fielder telegraphing their intentions...F3 is touching the bag for only one reason, he believes B/R missed it.  That's an appeal.  Easy peasy.

Right, agree completely.  I was responding to:

"Let's say it is the same play, but the fielder cannot get up quick enough and sees he is NOT going to beat the runner to the bag.  The fielder then yells "He missed the base!" before the batter-runner gets there.  Are you going to call him out on the verbal appeal? " from @ManinBlue

Though I perhaps misinterpreted what he meant there and we were talking by each other here.

On 5/26/2022 at 4:46 PM, The Man in Blue said:

This is interesting, as I'm not sure I would even consider this as an appeal play.  While it technically meets the definition, this just feels weird.  While avoiding the tag, he batter-runner's momentum carried him away from the base and he immediately corrected himself back to the bag.  He didn't really run (or slide) past it and miss it.

On Re-read, I think this means, "This is a normal put-out, not an appeal out".  I disagree just based on seeing a bunch of Lindsay's past posts about this, in that the sheer action of 'passing' the base without touching it (the whole dotted-line diagonally around the base) requires an appeal.

EDIT: AH! BUT I get the interesting point here, and likely what @ManinBlue was getting at:  Had this NOT been a force play, say a play at the plate (or 3B if that matters?0 where the runner has a similar situation and gets past.  Could F2, while doing the whole dance-to-get-a-tag just stand up and say "he missed the base" while touching the base, and make it an appeal?  I would love to know that answer.

[The Man in Blue]

I think we are coming together on this purely academic discussion ... 😁

No, I don't think the fielder needs to verbally say "I AM APPEALING!"  (To which I reply, "Maybe your girlfriends think so.")  During/following a dead ball situation, a verbal appeal makes sense.  We are aware that an appeal does NOT HAVE to be verbal as long as it is obviously intended as an appeal.  My thought on the play in question (and it doesn't change the outcome, so this really is semantics) is that is NOT an obvious appeal as F3 was (IMO) still trying to beat the runner to first base for the force play.  Again, just semantics, but why call this an appeal at this point?  And if you are calling it an appeal, since OBR does not allow a dead ball appeal and does allow a verbal appeal, I am asking would you allow F3 to simply verbalize his appeal?

Yes, using physics and metrology, the runner was "past the base."  The fact that his momentum took him away from the base and not that he ran past the base, either as an overrun or as an attempt to advance, is where I am getting hung up and seeing this as a force play.

I see an appeal as a revisiting of something that already happened, not action ongoing.