First or second play in IF and ball going into DBT

[BLWizzRanger]

Probably overthinking this, but, relearning is the key...

NFHS

R1, <2 outs

Ball is hit to F6 and their movement is to touch 2nd for the force before throwing to first.  In (A), he runs two or three steps, sets up to throw, and touches second on the throw's release or (b) does his normal footwork to throw and touches second on the throw's release.  Each (A) and (B) results to the ball being thrown into DBT and the BR past 1st when the ball does enter DBT.

In (A) I have the BR being awarded 3rd as he was past first, it was F6's second play after the pitch.

In (B) I have the BR being awarded 2nd as it was F6's first play after the pitch.

Are both of these correct? 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Probably overthinking this, but, relearning is the key...

NFHS

R1, <2 outs

Ball is hit to F6 and their movement is to touch 2nd for the force before throwing to first.  In (A), he runs two or three steps, sets up to throw, and touches second on the throw's release or (b) does his normal footwork to throw and touches second on the throw's release.  Each (A) and (B) results to the ball being thrown into DBT and the BR past 1st when the ball does enter DBT.

In (A) I have the BR being awarded 3rd as he was past first, it was F6's second play after the pitch.

In (B) I have the BR being awarded 2nd as it was F6's first play after the pitch.

Are both of these correct? 

Relearn by reading the rule:

“In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of ­fielding is not considered a play. If every runner, including the batter-runner, has advanced one base at the time of the first play, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw.”

Excerpt From 3-5
2020 NFHS Baseball Rules Book
NFHS
https://books.apple.com/us/book/2020-nfhs-baseball-rules-book/id1485298477
This material may be protected by copyright.

I don’t see a distinction regarding the first play being the force at 2B so the award would be 2 bases TOT as the throw to 1B was the second play.  Where the batter was when the ball went out of play means nothing. In most of these plays the batter would get 3B (edit 2B, typing error on phone) because a smart pivot man would not throw if the batter was already at 1B. 

[RBIbaseball]

I have the same result in both cases:

The tag of 2B was the first play, and the throw to 1B was the second play.

Regardless, a runner is rarely going to be awarded 3B, because the runner would have to have touched 1B prior to release of the throw... which is highly unlikely at even moderate levels of youth baseball. 

[maven]

44 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

I have the same result in both cases:

The tag of 2B was the first play, and the throw to 1B was the second play.

Regardless, a runner is rarely going to be awarded 3B, because the runner would have to have touched 1B prior to release of the throw... which is highly unlikely at even moderate levels of youth baseball. 

+1

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Each (A) and (B) results to the ball being thrown into DBT and the BR past 1st when the ball does enter DBT.

The award is based on the time of the throw, not the time the ball becomes dead.

[BLWizzRanger]

13U playing modified NFHS rules - the play described was pretty close to as I described.  The BR was a step or two from the bag before the throw but it got me to thinking....

I am going to solidify my understanding of what a 'play' constitutes.  I was thinking too much that F6 continuous act of tagging the base while throwing the ball could be considered one play, since, hey he was throwing the ball at that exact moment and didn't need another step to release the ball.  But, the first result (play) was an out at 2nd and the second result (play) was the ball in DBT.

Ok, Thanks everyone.

[SH0102]

3 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

13U playing modified NFHS rules - the play described was pretty close to as I described.  The BR was a step or two from the bag before the throw but it got me to thinking....

I am going to solidify my understanding of what a 'play' constitutes.  I was thinking too much that F6 continuous act of tagging the base while throwing the ball could be considered one play, since, hey he was throwing the ball at that exact moment and didn't need another step to release the ball.  But, the first result (play) was an out at 2nd and the second result (play) was the ball in DBT.

Ok, Thanks everyone.

BL...even if R1 is safe, it is still a play, and now R1 would be awarded home.

Just ask yourself, did the fielder make a legitimate attempt to retire a runner?  If yes, then that is a play and base-award is 2 from the throw.  It does not matter if he is successful, did he try to put out R1 (or r2 or r3)?  That is all that matters.

If he starts to throw to 2nd base, changes his mind, and throws to 1st, that is not a play.  If he takes a step or two, changes his mind, not a play.  If he reaches out and tries to tag R2 running by and misses, that IS a play.  If he throws to the bag to try and get r1, that is a play, whether r1 is safe or not.  If he touches the base, he is doing that in an attempt to retire r1, that is a play.

Hope that helps

[BLWizzRanger]

I got you Sho, its the attempt not the result. Thanks.

[noumpere]

41 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

 

I am going to solidify my understanding of what a 'play' constitutes.

 

5.1 PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY
The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases
(Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):
A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has
possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a
runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or
actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the
runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an
attempted play.
EXAMPLES:
A play or attempted play:
(1) Runners on first and second, ground ball to the shortstop, who makes a swipe at the
runner from second but misses and then throws beyond first base into the stands.
Ruling: The swipe by the shortstop is an attempted play; thus the throw to first is not the
first play by an infielder (even though it is the first throw), and the proper award of bases
would be from the time of the throw.
(2) Runner on first and ground ball to second baseman who flips ball to short to get runner
from first but who is safe. Shortstop throws beyond first into the stands.
Ruling: The flip by the second baseman to the shortstop is an attempted play, even
though unsuccessful. The throw to first is not the first play by an infielder and thus runner
should be placed from the time of the throw. Runner who was on first would score and
batter-runner would be placed at second.
Not a play or attempted play:
(1) A fake or a feint to a base but not actually throwing, even though the fielder draws his
arm back to feint a throw.
(2) A pitcher feinting a throw toward a base to hold or check a runner's progress in order to
complete an appeal play at another base.
(3) Runner on first, ground ball to the shortstop, who starts to flip the ball to the second
baseman but does not and throws the ball beyond first and out of play.
Ruling: The feint to the second baseman is not considered a play or attempted play, and
award of bases is from the time of the pitch.
(4) Runners on first and third, runner on first stealing as ground ball is hit to shortstop. The
shortstop feints a throw home but does not throw-instead throws to first and into the
stands; during this time the runner from first has rounded second base.
Ruling: The feint by the shortstop toward home is not considered a play or attempted
play; thus the throw beyond first is the first play by an infielder and awards should be
made from the time of the pitch.