Goofy windup, worse coach response-

[ErichKeane]

So I had an odd situation today in a 14U "practice" doubleheader  for a "club team" (1 man).  I'd asked for the ruleset at the beginning of the game and was told "high school rules".

Home team puts up a pitcher with 2 outs (man on 3rd!) who from windup is SOMETIMES coming to a complete stop on his 'step backwards', and ALSO sometimes coming to a complete stop with his knee in the air.  I'm talking about a 2-3 second freeze at either place.  Further, he doesn't have a consistent timing on his pitching.  Sometimes he breaks his hands from the windup and 'rushes' through the windup, and sometimes he does his complete stop at 1 or both.  The timing DEFINITELY gave me a hassle!

I don't call it in the ~5 pitches to the batter, which he gets out, though in retrospect this was probably serious enough to have called 1st time (I do a LOT of 'learning' games, where coaches appreciate 'ticky tack' balk stuff to be discussed with them/the pitcher directly instead of an insta-balk).

As the 1B coach (not HC, who was busy with the team) is crossing the field, I mention to him that those pauses are very much an illegal pitch/balk, and he should mention it. 

Next inning, same kid comes out.  1st pitch he does the 'fast-mode' through the windup (slide step and mini-backup-step and all).  2nd pitch he does the mini-backup-step, followed by hanging his knee in the air.  I give a look to the dugout hoping for a 'corrective' action by the coach, and get nothing.  3rd pitch he does a 'normal pace'.  4th pitch he does the step back and freeze, so I throw my hands up and finally call an illegal pitch.

Coach calls time, so I figure he wants help teaching the pitcher, so I walk toward the mound. 

Coach says, "You're above to tell me some rule that doesn't exist in high school ball." 

Me: "This rule is in all of the rulesets, including FED".

Coach: "We play High School Rules, not whatever this FED is"

Me: (internally... oh boy) FED is "Federation"

Coach: "We don't play those rules"

Me: "Federation, as in National Federation of High Schools, which is the ruleset that all the High Schools around here play under.  Once he breaks his hands, he is required to make one continuous pitching motion, he's not allowed to come to a complete stop."

Coach: "So what you're trying to tell me is that if <list of MLB pitchers who presumably come to a complete stop during their windup> came to High School Ball, you'd be calling that here?"

Me: "First, it is an illegal pitch in the MLB as well, but they do it consistently, AND secondly, the MLB umps let a lot of things go they shouldn't.  The rule is one continuous motion and that is what I'll be calling.  I'll give you a moment to explain this to your pitcher." AND walked away.

 

After that, the coach behaved, and was generally pleasant.  The pitcher managed to have a continuous motion for the rest of his time in that game (AND in the 2nd game of the double header).  He STILL varied his windup speed, but, unless I'm missing something in the rules (though, somewhat confused by the meaning of 'alteration' in 6-1-2!), but behaved for another 4-5 innings.

 

As a BONUS story-- Away team was winning by a bit(I wasn't keeping score, just a feeling!), and home team had 2 on, 2 out, bottom 7.  Batter gets to 2-2, and pitcher perfectly paints what my trainer called "The least understood strike call in Baseball".  That is: pitcher pitching across the strike zone and catching the front 'corner' of the plate just above the knee, then trailing off into the dirt in the batters box.  I rung him up, catcher tagged him out, and that was game.   Seems like that just makes our job harder when folks don't call these consistently 😕

A dad in the stands started saying something like, "How could you call that, it was clearly low AND away, learn the strike zone" (etc).  I pulled off my mask and turned around quickly to see who it was, and magically he no longer hand anything to complain about   I've spoken to a handful other umps in the league as I've been partnered with them, and a few mentioned that they hate making that call to the point where they don't call it 😕

[Dottelife]

Don’t ever do basketball because it’s this conversation all day.
Hey why is that a travel?

Because he took 4 steps

they do that in the nba

Yeah we actually call it by the rules here 

[Senor Azul]

According to the 2016 BRD (section 429, p. 286):

FED:  The pitcher may not pause in the windup position once he has moved any part of his body such as he habitually does in his delivery.

2011 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 20: With R3 on third base, the pitcher is in the windup position. At the top of his motion, he pauses for two or three seconds and then delivers. RULING: The umpire shall declare a balk and score R3 from third base. After a pitcher starts his motion to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. (6-1-2, 6-2-4)

It is legal in both NCAA and OBR for the pitcher to pause in his windup delivery. In NCAA by rule 9-1a Note 2 and in OBR by official interpretation.

 

[ErichKeane]

9 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

According to the 2016 BRD (section 429, p. 286):

FED:  The pitcher may not pause in the windup position once he has moved any part of his body such as he habitually does in his delivery.

2011 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 20: With R3 on third base, the pitcher is in the windup position. At the top of his motion, he pauses for two or three seconds and then delivers. RULING: The umpire shall declare a balk and score R3 from third base. After a pitcher starts his motion to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. (6-1-2, 6-2-4)

It is legal in both NCAA and OBR for the pitcher to pause in his windup delivery. In NCAA by rule 9-1a Note 2 and in OBR by official interpretation.

 

Ooh, I'd not know it was legal in OBR! That definitely helps me in the future. I knew the 6-1-2 part, but hadn't realized there wasn't similar wording in OBR!

 

Thanks!

[noumpere]

I will add:

1) "consistently" doesn't matter

2) A pitch that hits the dirt (assuming F2 is in a reasonably normal position) is almost never going to be a strike, even if it technically hit the front of the pate at the knees

3)If the coach calls it "HS rules" or (inert sate association name or initials) you should call it "HS rules"  or (state association name / initials) to make the communication easier

[The Man in Blue]

37 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I will add:

1) "consistently" doesn't matter

2) A pitch that hits the dirt (assuming F2 is in a reasonably normal position) is almost never going to be a strike, even if it technically hit the front of the pate at the knees

3)If the coach calls it "HS rules" or (inert sate association name or initials) you should call it "HS rules"  or (state association name / initials) to make the communication easier

@ErichKeane I will applaud you for calling it and I will call it all day long with you.

Attitudes like the one posted above (“I don’t care what the rules say, this makes my life easy”) are what make life harder for the rest of us.

I had a college coach (coaching a travel team) scream at me that strikes cannot be called if the catcher doesn’t catch them cleanly.  I calmly walked down and replied that we do our best with the strike zone and can be off, but there is NO rule book anywhere that says that anything about a catcher having impact on the strike zone; it is defined by the plate and the batter.  Then I apologized for his previous umpires just trying to make their life easy and collect a check.  He just muttered and walked away.

[ErichKeane]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

@ErichKeane I will applaud you for calling it and I will call it all day long with you.

Attitudes like the one posted above (“I don’t care what the rules say, this makes my life easy”) are what make life harder for the rest of us.

I had a college coach (coaching a travel team) scream at me that strikes cannot be called if the catcher doesn’t catch them cleanly.  I calmly walked down and replied that we do our best with the strike zone and can be off, but there is NO rule book anywhere that says that anything about a catcher having impact on the strike zone; it is defined by the plate and the batter.  Then I apologized for his previous umpires just trying to make their life easy and collect a check.  He just muttered and walked away.

Thanks! It is definitely a rock and a hard place.  I call it consistently, and have not had batters complain about it, and start swinging once I do.  I've only had a single coach question it, and he was happy after I explained the strike zone.  The umpires in the 3rd row don't get the explanation though

The MUR (made up rules) ruleset DOES make for some fun interpretations How did that college coach think uncaught 3rd strikes worked?

[The Man in Blue]

I should have added that I do agree with @noumpere on points 1 and 3.  We want to stick with rulebook terminology, but sometimes we have to adjust so that we are speaking the same language as the coach.

Which brings me to the UK3 …

Coach: “It may have bounced, but my catcher didn’t drop it!  The rule is dropped third strike! (Me: SMH)

Back in Illinois I quit calling summer baseball years ago because most of the time even the tournament directors couldn’t provide a clear explanation of what rules they were playing under.  They would say things like “high school” but then not want to follow NFHS rules (“why are you making them take off their jewelry?  What do you mean I can’t bat the order AND use a courtesy runner?”).

[ErichKeane]

Just now, The Man in Blue said:

I should have added that I do agree with @noumpere on points 1 and 3.  We want to stick with rulebook terminology, but sometimes we have to adjust so that we are speaking the same language as the coach.

Which brings me to the UK3 …

Coach: “It may have bounced, but my catcher didn’t drop it!  The rule is dropped third strike! (Me: SMH)

Back in Illinois I quit calling summer baseball years ago because most of the time even the tournament directors couldn’t provide a clear explanation of what rules they were playing under.  They would say things like “high school” but then not want to follow NFHS rules (“why are you making them take off their jewelry?”).

Oh, I definitely agree with him about #1, I just didn't think about it in #3, I shoulda done better about that.

Uncaught vs Dropped 3k is one I haven't run into yet! 

I typically only get assigned games with a known ruleset: BabeRuth/Cal-Ripken, NFHS (with JBO mods), or a local Tourney that does OBR.  AND this is obvious ahead of time.  This ended up being a 'club' assignment where they asked for an ump the night before, so my assigner asked me/assigned me 12 hrs before the game (THEN, changed my game/field on the drive in!). 

ALL of the coaches in the area in those other 3 have a decent hold of the terminology, so this was my first time with this problem. 

Fortunately, the TD that runs the tourneys in this area is SUPER good, and the assignor/head ump is a really qualified ump we can get via text/call (tourney typically runs 10+ locations around a sizable metro area!) if need-be, which is really useful for checking ourselves between games.

[HokieUmp]

23 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

A dad in the stands started saying something like, "How could you call that, it was clearly low AND away, learn the strike zone" (etc).  I pulled off my mask and turned around quickly to see who it was, and magically he no longer hand anything to complain about

To side-track from the original issue.....  honestly, this is the point where the "don't talk to the fence" rule is invoked.  On the other hand, if you ARE going to interact with them, that would be the time to mention the official's shortage, and how they could pick up some extra cash, seeing as to how they're experts on the strike zone!

[The Man in Blue]

During the craptastic championship game of this weekend’s tournament (details in another thread), I was doing my best to keep the coach (and his players) in the travesty of a game, but there was one female spectator that was just going too far.  I never looked at her.  I simply turned around and motioned for the tournament director.

I said “She needs to go.”

He asked “Which one?”

I know my reply wasn’t great, but it was the epitome of don’t talk to the fence: “I don’t care, I’m not looking over there.  The coach knows and if he says he doesn’t, let him pick one.”

Sometimes you have to shoot a hostage.

I don’t think the TD removed her (this park is notorious for trying to undermine umpire ejections to keep customers happy), but I didn’t hear another word until we were walking off the field and a woman (who I think was the offender) was trying to tell me, “We really do appreciate you, Blue.”  I believe she was sincere at that point.  I said “Thank you” and kept moving.