NFHS - courtesy runner (without time granted)

[RBIbaseball]

Edit: now that I have talked about it in this thread, it struck me that it was actually a pinch runner in this scenario, not a courtesy runner... though I don't think that really changes anything for the discussion

 

I had a situation (I'm BU) where a 3rd base coach tapped his player on the butt sending him toward the first base dugout. Subsequently yelling "Hey blue, courtesy runner for the catcher, Hey Bob send out #14 courtesy runner, Bob! #14" ... anyways you get it.  The coach wasn't being an ass or anything, I think he just got ahead of himself. As this was happening F1 had just received the ball on the mound and wasn't paying much attention. Regardless the ball is still live.

It didn't take me long to process that the coach wanted a timeout to get a courtesy runner in, but it did take a few seconds, and by the time I called "Time", R3 was just a few steps in front of the pitcher running towards his dugout. I took those extra couple seconds to analyze the fact that the runner was clearly off the base, and the pitcher wasn't paying attention enough to think about the ball being live or attempting a play on that runner. Regardless, I decided to grant time to avoid any shenanigans that would cuase hurt feelings (in hind sight I think F1 assumed time was called or had a gentleman's agreement mindset), but I don't think I would have done it if I thought F1 was thinking about making a play.

So a couple questions...

1. If the pitcher was savvy enough to start making a play toward that runner, before I granted "Time", then no reason to feel bad when that 3B coach blows up over it, right?

2. Could/should I have been more difficult and not granted time and just responded, "Coach the ball is still live", since that player was running willy nillly accross the diamond?

 

For what it's worth, as the courtesy runner was running over, I did tell the coach "Coach make sure you get time before you send your runner off the base next time". He just looked at me crazy - as in he's been coaching baseball longer than I've been alive (which I'm sure he has, lol).

 

 

[JonnyCat]

18 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

So a couple questions...

1. If the pitcher was savvy enough to start making a play toward that runner, before I granted "Time", then no reason to feel bad when that 3B coach blows up over it, right?

2. Could/should I have been more difficult and not granted time and just responded, "Coach the ball is still live", since that player was running willy nillly accross the diamond?

I my opinion, no to both of these. Don't pick up the end of that stick. Grant time and let them change it up. The offense is not gaining any advantage, and the defense doesn't need a cheap out.

Nothing good can come of this. Just let them switch it up and don't even bother to tell the coach anything. If the play is relaxed, just let it go. Both teams know what the offense is doing.

[RBIbaseball]

28 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

I my opinion, no to both of these. Don't pick up the end of that stick. Grant time and let them change it up. The offense is not gaining any advantage, and the defense doesn't need a cheap out.

Nothing good can come of this. Just let them switch it up and don't even bother to tell the coach anything. If the play is relaxed, just let it go. Both teams know what the offense is doing.

Ya I suppose I didn't need to say anything, but at the same time, the Coach should be asking for time before sending people off the field, no?

 

But to your answer to my question #1. ... R3 was at least 5 or 6 steps off 3B before the coach yelled at anyone... so if F1 or F5 saw that opportunity and ran and tagged him out, you suggest retroactively granting time and not calling the runner out?   - I get it's cheap, but I find it hard not to reward the defense for paying attention to the sloppy offense.

 

And just to be clear... it's not like the pitcher was standing on the mound and nothing happening for 10 sec... He had just received the ball back from F4 making a tag on R2. Basically, F1 had received the ball inbetween the runner leaving 3B and the coach yelling for the sub. 

[Mad Mike]

Maybe you should call him out for abandonment.....that would be a fun circus to watch too! 

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

Don't pick up the end of that stick. Grant time and let them change it up. The offense is not gaining any advantage, and the defense doesn't need a cheap out.

Or you could just go with what @JonnyCat said.

[JonnyCat]

At the upper levels, usually it's an implied time. Everyone knows what everyone else is doing in this situation. The same courtesy would be extended to the defense when they are on offense. Technically, yes, the coach needs to wait for time to be granted. But it this case, it just doesn't matter, neither team cares. Which is probably why the coach looked at you like you were crazy. 

IMO, it's not the end of the stick you want to pick up. You're going to have more trouble if you let that out happen. Call time retroactively if you have to, but you won't have to. If the defense puts up a bitch about it, it's just a simple, "coach, I had time." However, it won't happen, and just let it go. The play is relaxed, and you don't need to worry about it.

It's the same thing when a batter is walked and the coach comes out to talk/change out the pitcher before BR reaches 1B. Technically yes, he needs to wait until the BR gets to 1B, before coming out. But we let it happen. Everyone knows what's going on. No need to make a stink of it.

[RBIbaseball]

@JonnyCat @Mad Mike

This is exactly why I posed this scenario to you folks. It's hard for a new guy like me to know when to follow the rules to a T versus some of these unwritten social contracts. The coaches reaction is why I decided to post... if he thought I was being stupid, then maybe I was... so here I am asking how stupid I am, lol

But to play devils advocate , what if a coach/ player "have a play" where they verbalize a courtesy runner (loud enough for F1 to hear) without asking for time, then after 6 or 8 steps toward 1st base dugout, R3 breaks for home and scores... are you saying you called time on that too? ... idk seems weird to me, when hidden ball tricks and other gamesmanship is allowed, why wouldn't that be.

 

Also, to highlight it again (because this is part of the reason it felt weird to me), this all happened pretty much instantly off the back of a close play at 2B, and F1 had t even received the ball back when R3 initially took off... I'm not saying F1 has to have it to get time, but point being the state of "no one is advancing" was brand new at best.

[RBIbaseball]

1 hour ago, Mad Mike said:

Maybe you should call him out for abandonment.....that would be a fun circus to watch too! 

Or you could just go with what @JonnyCat said.

Okay okay. At least give me credit that I knew that was a bad idea.

 

But wait... I thought were suppose to get as many outs as we can ... something about money and beer

[JonnyCat]

9 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

But to play devils advocate , what if a coach/ player "have a play" where they verbalize a courtesy runner (loud enough for F1 to hear) without asking for time, then after 6 or 8 steps toward 1st base dugout, R3 breaks for home and scores... are you saying you called time on that too?

Yes, call time, too, and I'll tell you why. At the upper levels, this play wouldn't happen, but say it does. If it did and you let it go, you'd have one pissed off defense, and the next batter is going to get one in the ear hole and the rest of the game is going to turn to SH*#.

That's not a play that anyone is going to use, but don't ever let it happen. As far as you're concerned, time was granted when the coach asked for a courtesy runner.

If play is relaxed, then certain things can happen without being too technical "when" time was actually granted. For instance, when cleaning off the plate after a play, some umpires call time, and others don't. (There are some threads about this somewhere on UE). Regardless if you verbalize time or not, everyone knows what is happening, and no one tries any shenanigans. It's an implied time and everyone knows that.

[JonnyCat]

9 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

But wait... I thought were suppose to get as many outs as we can ... something about money and beer

Don't forget about the hookers and blow, too.

[Velho]

2 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

If play is relaxed, then certain things can happen without being too technical "when" time was actually granted. For instance, when cleaning off the plate after a play, some umpires call time, and others don't.

Saw an OHC take advantage of this in a 16U tournament. "Time was never called. Time was never called!!" as the 20 yr old PU who was there for gas money wiped the plate. I was a spectator and thought to myself "Yeah coach, the ball has never been put in play the whole game either. What's your point?"

[HokieUmp]

10 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Don't forget about the hookers and blow, too.

Advanced mechanic.

[The Man in Blue]

On 4/19/2022 at 12:50 PM, Velho said:

Saw an OHC take advantage of this in a 16U tournament. "Time was never called. Time was never called!!" as the 20 yr old PU who was there for gas money wiped the plate. I was a spectator and thought to myself "Yeah coach, the ball has never been put in play the whole game either. What's your point?"

I had a veteran ump ask me why I always call time before brushing the plate.  My response at that moment was “Habit?”

The next game he had the plate … and we had it happen.  He looked a little bewildered as to why the runner just slid over his clean plate and the defense was chirping, so I came in to help him sort out.  “I guess that’s why.”  We let the run stand, but I didn’t feel great about it.

[BigBlue4u]

I suppose it's a matter of choice.  I never called time to brush the plate.  What I DID do was to look around to see where the runners were.

[The Man in Blue]

But where they were is not always where they stay.  😁