Fielder's Choice or Error

[The Euge]

This situation happened twice in the same inning at two different positions in a recent HS softball game. 

Situation 1:

No outs. Runner on first. Batter hits a pop up on the infield to SS. As SS catches the ball, 3B runs into her knocking the ball out of the glove. The pitcher was alert enough to pick up the ball and throw to the 2B on second to get the force out of the runner on first. The batter-runner was safe at first. In the scorebook, a force out is recorded for the runner at second. No error was issued to SS. How do you account for the batter-runner at first? A fielder's choice was recorded even though there really wasn't a choice to get batter-runner at first.  Or should a error or hit be recorded to account for the batter-runner at first. 

Situation 2: Note this situation occurred on the next play immediately after Situation 2.

One out. Runner on first. Better hits fly ball to centerfielder. Centerfielder drops the fly ball, but has the focus to pick up the ball and throw to SS at second base to get the force out of the runner of first. Batter-runner is safe at first. In the scorebook, a force out is recorded for the runner at second. No error was issued to centerfielder. How do you account for the batter-runner at first? A fielder's choice was recorded even though there really wasn't a choice to get batter-runner at first.

In both scenarios, my head tells be FC was the correct answer, but something does not sound right. A coach told me you can't record an FC since there was no choice to get the batter-runner. If FC shouldn't have been recorded, that would mean either the batter-runner is on first by either a hit or an error. The player can't just magically appear on first. Was the original scoring of FC correct for the batter-runner on first?

[SH0102]

Those are literally textbook fielders choice. Anytime an out is recorded on a forced runner and the batter is safe at first, it’s a fielders choice.  There is no provisions for judgment, “well…they didn’t really choose, they took the only out they could get”.  That would lead to some fun convos with coaches, players, and moms of the kid who didn’t get credit for a single

[Senor Azul]

The original scoring of a fielder’s choice to show how the batter got on base is correct. Your head telling you that an FC is correct is giving you good information. The coach who advised you was wrong. Here’s the actual definition of the term fielder’s choice from 2015 NFHS softball rule 9-3-2c NOTE:

Scorekeepers use the term in the following ways: (1) to indicate the advance of the - batter-runner who takes one or more bases when the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner; (2) to indicate the advance of a runner, other than by stolen base (F.P.) or error, while a fielder is trying to putout another runner; and (3) to indicate the advance of a runner due to the defensive team’s refusal to play on the runner (F.P., an undefended steal).

An assist and a putout are recorded on the successful force play made on the runner. The batter is considered as having reached base on a fielder’s choice. The rationale is that the outcome of the play is the same as if the fielder had caught the ball—there is one more out and a runner on first base. So score the plays at second base as 1-4 and 8-6 and show the batter reaching first base on the FC in each case.

One caveat is that the error is ignored only if it’s a force play following the dropped fly ball. If an unforced putout is made after the dropped fly ball the error is charged to the fielder and the batter is shown as having reached base on the error.

 

I would say that your scorekeeper is pretty sharp and that you have a pretty good grasp of how to keep score.

[Velho]

Agreed with the above so not countering the application of the rules...

 Personally I don't like how, had those hits been clean singles but R1 brain freezes, falls down, etc. and gets forced off, the BR doesn't get a hit. I suppose that's what leads us to the "3 true outcome" mindset that is arguably ruining the game. 

Add-on: as a coach, those will be treated as defensive errors.

[Replacematt]

32 minutes ago, Velho said:

Agreed with the above so not countering the application of the rules...

 Personally I don't like how, had those hits been clean singles but R1 brain freezes, falls down, etc. and gets forced off, the BR doesn't get a hit. I suppose that's what leads us to the "3 true outcome" mindset that is arguably ruining the game. 

Add-on: as a coach, those will be treated as defensive errors.

This has nothing to do with TTO.

[Velho]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

This has nothing to do with TTO.

Interested (genuinely) to understand why you think it does not relate to the Three True Outcomes of BB, K, HR?

TTO is a focus becaues there is no "luck" involved. A clean hit scored a FC because R1 is glacially slow cannot be used to judge the batters performance. Contrary example of easy fly ball that the OF let's drop clean is scored a hit. The first batter succeeded while the second failed. The outcome doesn't matter for evaluation of performance.

[beerguy55]

35 minutes ago, Velho said:

Agreed with the above so not countering the application of the rules...

 Personally I don't like how, had those hits been clean singles but R1 brain freezes, falls down, etc. and gets forced off, the BR doesn't get a hit. I suppose that's what leads us to the "3 true outcome" mindset that is arguably ruining the game. 

Add-on: as a coach, those will be treated as defensive errors.

Not exactly - the issue of these types of fielder's choice, scorekeepers judging errors vs hits, and other similar events have led to the general finding that Batting Average is not the best assessment of a player's value...hence the focus on OBP, and the next more extensive step into coming up with a WAR standard, which attempts to account for all those idiosyncrasies - for your example, in a full WAR measurement the batter would be credited with what should have been a hit, and the runner would be penalized for being the actual cause of the out.

 

That, in itself, is not a leading indicator to the TTO problem.   

[Catch18]

It is not a Fielder’s Choice for the result of R1 and how they’re retired. In play one, it’s PO 1-4 for the runner advancing toward 2nd (assuming you don’t want to be that concerned with the 3rd baseman’s touch of the ball first). Batter is recorded with FC to achieve 1st. Not a hit. Not an error.

Same for second scenario. I believe there is no error charged because an out was recorded on the runner advancing to 2nd. PO 8-4 on R1, FC to batter.


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[Velho]

8 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

That, in itself, is not a leading indicator to the TTO problem. 

16 minutes ago, Matt said:

This has nothing to do with TTO.

Feel like we're talking past each other and that's maybe my fault. I'm using "TTO" as a representation of a broader concept. In my mind, the fact that BA, RBIs (and even OBP), etc. have judgmental and luck aspects understandably led to seeking something better.

IMO, some folks have over done it and become hyper focused on hitting for power (and disregarding the resultant strikeouts) over contact.

The rules could be written to dramatically reduce the luck aspect.

[Replacematt]

22 minutes ago, Velho said:

Feel like we're talking past each other and that's maybe my fault. I'm using "TTO" as a representation of a broader concept. In my mind, the fact that BA, RBIs (and even OBP), etc. have judgmental and luck aspects understandably led to seeking something better.

IMO, some folks have over done it and become hyper focused on hitting for power (and disregarding the resultant strikeouts) over contact.

The rules could be written to dramatically reduce the luck aspect.

A ball in play that is either a hit or FC is the exact same thing when it comes to TTO, so that's why I said that. And if you're talking about broader concepts, we're now realizing that many of the longstanding metrics are of limited or no utility, as you said. But TTO is a concept that is used only to measure the pitcher/batter relationship; it's intentional in eliminating defensive factors, which we now know are not as significant to outcomes as once thought, precisely because of this analysis.

The focus has shifted to those pitcher/batter factors because they work. Without changes, they will still be the best way to enhance chances of success in the future. It's informed selection.

[beerguy55]

10 hours ago, The Euge said:

In both scenarios, my head tells be FC was the correct answer, but something does not sound right. A coach told me you can't record an FC since there was no choice to get the batter-runner. If FC shouldn't have been recorded, that would mean either the batter-runner is on first by either a hit or an error. The player can't just magically appear on first. Was the original scoring of FC correct for the batter-runner on first?

The fielder did still have  a choice...that one of the options would have been a very poor choice is beside the point.

As you say, the scorekeeper must account for the batter's presence on first base.   It cannot be a hit.   If an out was recorded on the forced runner, it's a FC.   You don't penalize the defense, because the defense's misplay did not result in any advancement of the offense.   In both scenarios the end result is the same - one out recorded and a runner at first base.

 

Now, as mentioned above, if R1 successfully reached second base, and then was thrown out at third, you would record an error for the batter reaching first...R1 is scored as advancing to second on the same error, and is thrown out trying to advance to third.   So, if F8 drops the ball and then throws at R1 trying to advance to third, you would have E8...and then F8 would also get an assist in the 8-5 putout.   (if for example, F8 dropped the ball and F9 picked it up and threw out the runner, it would be E8, 9-5 putout, and no assist to F8)

[madlemur]

On 3/4/2022 at 2:00 AM, The Euge said:

This situation happened twice in the same inning at two different positions in a recent HS softball game. 

Situation 1:

No outs. Runner on first. Batter hits a pop up on the infield to SS. As SS catches the ball, 3B runs into her knocking the ball out of the glove. The pitcher was alert enough to pick up the ball and throw to the 2B on second to get the force out of the runner on first. The batter-runner was safe at first. In the scorebook, a force out is recorded for the runner at second. No error was issued to SS. How do you account for the batter-runner at first? A fielder's choice was recorded even though there really wasn't a choice to get batter-runner at first.  Or should a error or hit be recorded to account for the batter-runner at first. 

Situation 2: Note this situation occurred on the next play immediately after Situation 2.

One out. Runner on first. Better hits fly ball to centerfielder. Centerfielder drops the fly ball, but has the focus to pick up the ball and throw to SS at second base to get the force out of the runner of first. Batter-runner is safe at first. In the scorebook, a force out is recorded for the runner at second. No error was issued to centerfielder. How do you account for the batter-runner at first? A fielder's choice was recorded even though there really wasn't a choice to get batter-runner at first.

In both scenarios, my head tells be FC was the correct answer, but something does not sound right. A coach told me you can't record an FC since there was no choice to get the batter-runner. If FC shouldn't have been recorded, that would mean either the batter-runner is on first by either a hit or an error. The player can't just magically appear on first. Was the original scoring of FC correct for the batter-runner on first?

Both are Fielder's Choice.  You can't assess an error to anyone when a force out is recorded.  Both are just regular force out at second base.