"New" rotational mechanic?

[SeeingEyeDog]

Greetings brothers,

     I have worked with three senior partners recently; working 2-man and we pre-gamed a rotational mechanic wherein with R1 (U1 is in B) and a ball batted into the infield, PU comes up to the catch line on the 3B side of the field to watch R1 into second (FPSR, obstruction, interference, malicious contact, general mayhem, etc.). U1 has out/safe at 2B...nothing new here so far.

     The new part is...if R1 is safe into 2B and then advances to 3B, this now becomes a rotation, PU takes this play at 3B. The reasoning is...PU is significantly closer to 3B than U1 who started this play in the B position and is likely still on the 1B side of the field.

     What is the preferred verbalization here..."I've got third if he goes." followed by "I've got third." (when he indeed goes) or "I'm going home." (when he does not go)? Who else is using this mechanic out there? What do you think of it? Any concerns beyond busting home in the event of R1 attempting to score?

~Dawg

[LRZ]

If I recall correctly, this was the standard mechanic when I was first trained, 40 years ago. And, yes, "I've got third if he goes," or, simply, "I've got third." It worked fine. 

IMO, any system works well as long as umpires pre-game, communicate and hustle. The powers that be often have a "better" idea about how things must be done, but occasionally it's an "old" one. 

[Jimurray]

25 minutes ago, LRZ said:

If I recall correctly, this was the standard mechanic when I was first trained, 40 years ago. And, yes, "I've got third if he goes," or, simply, "I've got third." It worked fine. 

IMO, any system works well as long as umpires pre-game, communicate and hustle. The powers that be often have a "better" idea about how things must be done, but occasionally it's an "old" one. 

It's standard now in NCAA and PBUC and Evans also send the PU to 3B if R1 is safe and going, absent any 1B foul line responsibility. Since it is the standard mechanic there is no need to communicate that the PU has 3B. But there is a need to communicate that he won't be at 3B if he needs to stay on the 1B line: "I'm on the line."

[noumpere]

Standard, but not as good as having PU come up the first base line, imo.  There's a far greater chance of a swipe tag then there is of a play to third AND it's harder to get right without PU's help.

[agdz59]

The other part of this is once PU is committed to third U1 needs to be ready to bust it home in case the ball is overthrown etc at third.  Easy to get caught out on that since it happens so rarely.

[Jimurray]

5 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Standard, but not as good as having PU come up the first base line, imo.  There's a far greater chance of a swipe tag then there is of a play to third AND it's harder to get right without PU's help.

They do have PU move to help with that if R1 is out. 

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

The other part of this is once PU is committed to third U1 needs to be ready to bust it home in case the ball is overthrown etc at third.  Easy to get caught out on that since it happens so rarely.

PU busts home for that, not BU. 

[agdz59]

2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

PU busts home for that, not BU. 

Not here.  The reasoning is because PU is set and looking at 3B.  U1 had the play to 2B, is closer to home being in B and can get a head start to plate if he sees the ball sailing, getting by, etc.

 

[noumpere]

12 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

They do have PU move to help with that if R1 is out. 

Agreed -- but that's only some of the time and even then, PU won't get as good a look as he would have by going up the first-base side to begin with

[LRZ]

In 2-ump, we try to anticipate the most likely play or plays, recognizing that we can't possibly cover everything as well as in 3-ump or 4-ump, but there are gaps and weaknesses, and there's always a trade-off. That's why I emphasize communication and hustle--you do the best you can. 

There may not be a "need to communicate that the PU has 3B," but it doesn't hurt to do so, especially when working with partners with whom you may not be familiar.

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

It's standard now in NCAA and PBUC and Evans also send the PU to 3B if R1 is safe and going, absent any 1B foul line responsibility.

Here’s the problem with this, and why none of us in Phoenix (or Arizona, at large) use it: 

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

There's a far greater chance of a swipe tag than there is of a play to third AND it's harder to get right without PU's help.

This ^^^^^, emphasized nowhere near enough. 

Let’s get the absolutes out of the way – with R1, a ball that exits the infield, whether it be by ground, line, or fly, we do the PU ➡️ 3B rotation. The only thing that would thwart that would be the aforementioned 1BL fair/foul responsibility. But even a Fair/Foul to RF exposes how we should be reading and reacting to the developing play, instead of just “following a/the diagram” that a guide or manual directs. 

Worse yet, not all trainers & evaluators possess the same temperament to guide a trainee through how to process these plays, and instead directs or harps on the trainee to “just get there!”… “now!”… “move!” Soon, in order to not be chided anymore, or not to be deemed as “slow” or “lazy”, the trainee begins running to 3B… as soon as the ball is put in play! (I’ve even witnessed it on an overthrown pickoff attempt)… without recognizing what truly is at play! 

Best example? R1, and a bunt… we’ve got a PU suddenly clearing out of the plate area, headed for 3B, and we have a number of things to judge on… not the least of which is a judgement that the PU is the only one in the entire ballpark that can officially rule on – RLI! Why’s he headed to 3B? Because he’s been told to on a ground ball on the infield! 

I’m all for not being lazy, but we have to look beyond diagrams to what the natural rhythm and sequence of baseball really is. How often is a R1 safe at 2B, and then progress to 3B on a ground ball to the infield? And the BU is completely out of position to read a return throw and play at 3B?… if that actually happens? How often does that happen compared to an errant throw to 1B displacing the F3 for a possible swipe tag or pulled foot? And, if there is an overthrow of 1B, who is following the ball for potentially going into DBT? Hmm? 

[UMP45]

37 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Here’s the problem with this, and why none of us in Phoenix (or Arizona, at large) use it: 

This ^^^^^, emphasized nowhere near enough. 

Let’s get the absolutes out of the way – with R1, a ball that exits the infield, whether it be by ground, line, or fly, we do the PU ➡️ 3B rotation. The only thing that would thwart that would be the aforementioned 1BL fair/foul responsibility. But even a Fair/Foul to RF exposes how we should be reading and reacting to the developing play, instead of just “following a/the diagram” that a guide or manual directs. 

Worse yet, not all trainers & evaluators possess the same temperament to guide a trainee through how to process these plays, and instead directs or harps on the trainee to “just get there!”… “now!”… “move!” Soon, in order to not be chided anymore, or not to be deemed as “slow” or “lazy”, the trainee begins running to 3B… as soon as the ball is put in play! (I’ve even witnessed it on an overthrown pickoff attempt)… without recognizing what truly is at play! 

Best example? R1, and a bunt… we’ve got a PU suddenly clearing out of the plate area, headed for 3B, and we have a number of things to judge on… not the least of which is a judgement that the PU is the only one in the entire ballpark that can officially rule on – RLI! Why’s he headed to 3B? Because he’s been told to on a ground ball on the infield! 

I’m all for not being lazy, but we have to look beyond diagrams to what the natural rhythm and sequence of baseball really is. How often is a R1 safe at 2B, and then progress to 3B on a ground ball to the infield? And the BU is completely out of position to read a return throw and play at 3B?… if that actually happens? How often does that happen compared to an errant throw to 1B displacing the F3 for a possible swipe tag or pulled foot? And, if there is an overthrow of 1B, who is following the ball for potentially going into DBT? Hmm? 

Just a couple of things. One, if there is a bunt the PU has responsibility regardless which line he bunts it. Two, the PU shadows R1. As soon as he is out the PU will drop step and head back towards the 1st base foul line.  

[MadMax]

26 minutes ago, UMP45 said:

One, if there is a bunt the PU has responsibility regardless which line he bunts it.

And you are completely correct. While this an appropriate prescription, this is overlooked (or ignored) by many amateur umpires. This especially happens when a constant such as “you have fair/foul on all bunts” is assumed, but then there’s all this heightened emphasis placed on, “You have to get to 3B! You have to!!” by amateur trainers, or worse, partners during these ad-hoc “pre-games”… in a parking lot… in small-town USA. 

34 minutes ago, UMP45 said:

Two, the PU shadows R1.

And this doesn’t mean step-for-step down 3BL. PU needs to be aware of where R1 is in space, but there’s no point in dashing off to 3B like PU’s ball bags are afire. 

[Jimurray]

11 minutes ago, MadMax said:

And you are completely correct. While this an appropriate prescription, this is overlooked (or ignored) by many amateur umpires. This especially happens when a constant such as “you have fair/foul on all bunts” is assumed, but then there’s all this heightened emphasis placed on, “You have to get to 3B! You have to!!” by amateur trainers, or worse, partners during these ad-hoc “pre-games”… in a parking lot… in small-town USA. 

And this doesn’t mean step-for-step down 3BL. PU needs to be aware of where R1 is in space, but there’s no point in dashing off to 3B like PU’s ball bags are afire. 

While PBUC and Evans send the PU near 3B and, as @UMP45says,  they have the PU reposition for secondary responsibilities when R1 is out or not going, I don't see any concern at that level for the FPSR because the references I have are pre the OBR change. But NCAA does send the PU out to the 3B side of the mound for FSPR and then lets him cover 3B since he's near 3B if ball and R1 are going there. Otherwise NCAA sends the PU back to where he can help at 1B.  But does @noumpereespouse the PU going down the 1B line in FED or NCAA when a FPSR might need to be ruled on. Interestingly my state association changed the 3b side of the mound to the 1B side of the mound for a better angle of the slide at 2B and it puts the PU in a better position to help at 1B. I have not been happy with that view as it seems more people get in the way of my look and I still go to the 3B side of the mound and then move to help at 1B as best I can.

[noumpere]

12 hours ago, Jimurray said:

But does @noumpereespouse the PU going down the 1B line in FED or NCAA when a FPSR might need to be ruled on

I would make that the mechanic, although "down the line" might be too extreme.  But, those in charge don't ask me. 

I'll add to my previous rationale -- if there's an overthrow at first, PU can stay with the ball more easily than BU (recognizing that with two umpires and multiple runners and an overthrow, something is going to get less coverage than it might otherwise get).