Pitcher taking signs from catcher.

[mstaylor]

I'm with Brian. I had a kid the other night doing exactly that.

[Umpire in Chief]

Nothing illegal about it, UNTIL and UNLESS he does anything that resembles a pitching motion.

And he has to actually have the ball. No codes allow him to be at the pitchers plate w/o the ball, other codes differ as to where he can/cannot be w/o the ball.

[jaybird_1981]

I think you do gain an advantage from this though. Here is my point.

I let the pitcher the other night straddle the pitching plate and didn't say much but to mention it to the coach that he is supposed to be in contact when taking a sign from the catcher. Well the next pitcher came in and he was actually standing a foot behind the plate taking his sign and then stepping up to the rubber to pitch.

The problem with this is he is standing there taking signs and can do anything as far as picking off the base runner. If he has to toe the rubber it makes him at least have to turn and throw. See what I am saying?

[Umpire in Chief]

I definitely see what your seeing. But there is no advantage to the pitcher unless he tries to quick pitch. One time when challenged on a kid not taking his signal from the catcher I told the coach I have no idea what he's getting from the coach for all I know they're defensive positioning signals.

Smart coaching & playing dictates that the runner stay close to the base. So I have no sympathy for a runner who gets caught when the pitcher is not engaged. This rule is one where it is better to rule on the intent of the rule rather than the letter.

[jaybird_1981]

I definitely see what your seeing. But there is no advantage to the pitcher unless he tries to quick pitch. One time when challenged on a kid not taking his signal from the catcher I told the coach I have no idea what he's getting from the coach for all I know they're defensive positioning signals.

Smart coaching & playing dictates that the runner stay close to the base. So I have no sympathy for a runner who gets caught when the pitcher is not engaged. This rule is one where it is better to rule on the intent of the rule rather than the letter.

I have never called it until the opposing coach mentioned it and then I would tell the other coach between innings to correct the problem.

I still think it is a slight advantage however.

[Mr Umpire]

I have never called it until the opposing coach mentioned it and then I would tell the other coach between innings to correct the problem.

I still think it is a slight advantage however.

I don't see this as an advantage on a runner. The pitcher still has to turn to throw the ball for R1 and a RH pitcher, engaged or not. The only way I can even think of balking for this is if the pitcher is getting close to resembling if he is on the rubber. Such as in front of it or standing to the opposite side away from the base where the runner is (standing on the 3B side with R1 only) where it appears like his foot is touching the front of it. If all he is doing is straddled the rubber and it is obvious to everyone he is not trying to resemble pitching, then no balk and no advantage.

[MCLEOD36]

It is a balk, but it is a tough call to make, ie is he really looking for a sign. Now if he is off the rubber; straddling and shaking his head a couple of times, it should be called. But if not, might want to remind him not too do that or his coach.

We had an issue this past week, with pivot foot (windup) in the hole in front of the rubber and the other one ahead of it and not parallel. Coach is jumping up and down that it is a balk and feet should be parallel. Well, you get them all....

[jaybird_1981]

I don't see this as an advantage on a runner. The pitcher still has to turn to throw the ball for R1 and a RH pitcher, engaged or not. The only way I can even think of balking for this is if the pitcher is getting close to resembling if he is on the rubber. Such as in front of it or standing to the opposite side away from the base where the runner is (standing on the 3B side with R1 only) where it appears like his foot is touching the front of it. If all he is doing is straddled the rubber and it is obvious to everyone he is not trying to resemble pitching, then no balk and no advantage.

Like I said I didn't say much until the kid starting taking the signs standing behind the mound in no semblance of a stretch position. Pretty much standing there and all he had to do was flip the ball to first. I think that is an advantage.

I also think by letting them get away with the straddling nothing stops them from standing back and taking the signs from well behind the rubber and then it becomes an advantage.

[mstaylor]

Do not let your perception that the pitcher is gaining an advantage cloud your judgment. The only code that mentions this being a balk is Fed and even then I am not going to balk it unless he is really creating a problem.

In any other ruleset it is a "Don't do that." As long as he steps on the rubber and does everything that is required to not quick pitch I will leave it alone. The only reason to require the signs from the rubber is to prevent quick pitching. There is no consideration to the runner at all.

The pitcher can't gain an advantage unless the runner is stupid and walks off the base when he isn't engaged. That's baserunning 101, don't take a lead until the pitcher is on the rubber.

[dileonardoja]

See I didn't interpret it that way. I had this discussion with one of the guys in our chapter and he says since it doesn't not come out and say its a balk he won't call it.

That's not interpretation; thats called ignorance!

[Mr Umpire]

Like I said I didn't say much until the kid starting taking the signs standing behind the mound in no semblance of a stretch position. Pretty much standing there and all he had to do was flip the ball to first. I think that is an advantage.

Then, the second baseman has an advantage on the runner as well. All he has to do is be standing near the mound with the ball looking at the catcher instead of the pitcher and just flip the ball to 1B. Is that a balk? No. Unless the pitcher is straddling or touching the rubber, then he is considered to be like any other fielder. Like mstaylor said, the rule is only to keep from quick pitching the hitter. Only Fed calls it a balk, and that comes from those who do not know how baseball and its fundamental mechanics work. No pitcher gains an advantage or deceives a runner by taking their signs off the rubber.

Good pickoff moves will have an advantage on a runner but they are not balks. So, having an advantage doesn't have a lot to do with anything.

Unless you are telling the pitcher not to do that to prevent a quick pitch, then leave it alone. Do not tell him because you think he gains an advantage. He can be 10 feet from 2B, looking at the catcher for signs, and just flip the ball to 1B. Will you call a balk then or say something? Doubt it. You will save a lot of time and problems to leave it alone and just call the rules for quick pitching if it arises.

[mstaylor]

As a guy that knows the rules a lot better than me said, the rule says the pitcher has to take his sign from the rubber, it doesn't say he can't take one off the rubber.

Look at 8.05 and show me where it says it's a balk for taking signs off the rubber.

[kylejt]

Can we all agree that this is just a poorly worded attempt at preventing a quick pitch, and move on? A pitcher can take a sign from anywhere, at any time.

[mstaylor]

Can we all agree that this is just a poorly worded attempt at preventing a quick pitch, and move on? A pitcher can take a sign from anywhere, at any time.

I agree 100%. Unfortunately this is part of the pitching myths that continue being repeated over the years. There are quite a few and this is one.

[mazzamouth]

I think NCAA has the same rule, but it's treated as "don't do that". No penalty involved.

NCAA rule 9-2j. Take the signs from the catcher with the pivot foot not touching the pitcher's Rubber: Or

Penalty for j.- A ball sahall be called each time a pitcher violates this rule. If the pitcher pitches from this illegal position and the batter reaches 1st base and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to this violation.

I figured since I work college I would add that rule for you.

[mazzamouth]

Where exactly does is specifically say the penalty is a balk? All it says is that the pitcher shall take his signs from the rubber. It doesn't say anything about a balk until it talks about the pitcher turning his shoulders after coming set then it says that is a balk.

I hope you read the 2nd post.