Base Award - Ball Thrown Out of Play - Possessed by Catcher

[johnnyg08]

This play resulted in a ten minute delay and three separate visits to the headset 

 

[Jimurray]

38 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

This play resulted in a ten minute delay and three separate visits to the headset 

 

It was a catch and carry, one base award. Except it wasn’t a catch it was a possession and carry which might explain the delay about whether that’s a one base award also. The ball itself did not go out of play. 

[johnnyg08]

Are you sure about catch and carry? It was a thrown ball from the outfield.

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Are you sure about catch and carry? It was a thrown ball from the outfield.

That’s what I’m saying. The rule only references a fielder going into the dugout/dead ball area after a catch. This was a fielder going into the dugout possessing the ball after a throw. Probably some head scratching about whether to apply the catch and carry rule. The ball itself stayed live. 

[johnnyg08]

They put the batter runner on 3b. The discussion had to be whether or not to give the batter/runner home right? Time of Throw or possession and then out of play? Or no? 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

They put the batter runner on 3b. The discussion had to be whether or not to give the batter/runner home right? Time of Throw or possession and then out of play? Or no? 

The batter was out on the fly ball. Everyone else got 1 base time of step. They almost forgot about R1 who probably was at 2B when it happened. They gave him 3B. 

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

 

[noumpere]

"Catch and Carry" doesn't apply -- it wasn't a caught fly ball.

 

So, it's a two-base award.  The issue is whether the "throw" is really the throw (as if the ball had gone directly into the dugout -- which is the result they got) , or if it's the "carry" (and R1 should be awarded home since he was at second by this time)

 

Here's the rule:

(C) A fielder, after catching a fly ball, steps or falls
into any out-of-play area;
Rule 5.06(b)(3)(C) Comment: If a fielder, after having made a
legal catch, should step or fall into any out-of-play area, the
ball is dead and each runner shall advance one base, without
liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the
time the fielder entered such out-of-play area.

And this is from J/R:

A. Overthrows or Lodged Throws
Every runner is awarded two bases after an overthrow or lodged throw.' The
award is two bases either from the runner's time-of-pitch (TOP) base or time-of
throw (TOT) base.
It is an overthrow when:
(1) the thrown ball itself enters DBT,
(2) any fielder who is on DBT touches the throw.
(3) a fielder possesses 2 a thrown ball on LBT but, due to momentum, enters
DBT.
(4) a fielder possesses an uncaught batted ball or thrown ball and drops such
ball onto DBT (the "throw" occurs at the time of the drop).
(5) a fielder catches a batted ball but, after voluntarily releasing it, drops such
ball onto DBT (the "throw" occurs at the time of the drop).
(6) a fielder possesses a batted or thrown ball and intentionally enters DBT
(the "throw" occurs when he enters DBT).
(7) a fielder intentionally deflects an uncaught batted or thrown ball onto DBT
(the "throw" occurs when the ball is deflected).

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

"Catch and Carry" doesn't apply -- it wasn't a caught fly ball.

 

So, it's a two-base award.  The issue is whether the "throw" is really the throw (as if the ball had gone directly into the dugout -- which is the result they got) , or if it's the "carry" (and R1 should be awarded home since he was at second by this time)

 

Here's the rule:

(C) A fielder, after catching a fly ball, steps or falls
into any out-of-play area;
Rule 5.06(b)(3)(C) Comment: If a fielder, after having made a
legal catch, should step or fall into any out-of-play area, the
ball is dead and each runner shall advance one base, without
liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the
time the fielder entered such out-of-play area.

And this is from J/R:

A. Overthrows or Lodged Throws
Every runner is awarded two bases after an overthrow or lodged throw.' The
award is two bases either from the runner's time-of-pitch (TOP) base or time-of
throw (TOT) base.
It is an overthrow when:
(1) the thrown ball itself enters DBT,
(2) any fielder who is on DBT touches the throw.
(3) a fielder possesses 2 a thrown ball on LBT but, due to momentum, enters
DBT.
(4) a fielder possesses an uncaught batted ball or thrown ball and drops such
ball onto DBT (the "throw" occurs at the time of the drop).
(5) a fielder catches a batted ball but, after voluntarily releasing it, drops such
ball onto DBT (the "throw" occurs at the time of the drop).
(6) a fielder possesses a batted or thrown ball and intentionally enters DBT
(the "throw" occurs when he enters DBT).
(7) a fielder intentionally deflects an uncaught batted or thrown ball onto DBT
(the "throw" occurs when the ball is deflected).

The throw never went into dead ball territory. The catcher gloved it and his momentum took his feet into the dugout. The ball was in his glove when that happened. It didn’t appear that the ball ever went in the dugout. So they considered it TOT and gave R1 2 bases or they applied catch and carry and gave him 1 base. 

[johnnyg08]

29 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The throw never went into dead ball territory. The catcher gloved it and his momentum took his feet into the dugout. The ball was in his glove when that happened. It didn’t appear that the ball ever went in the dugout. So they considered it TOT and gave R1 2 bases or they applied catch and carry and gave him 1 base. 

I'm not tracking. To my knowledge is no rule that gives a runner one base on a thrown ball from the outfield. Thrown balls (except from the rubber) are all two base awards. 

The only thing I believe they were reviewing was whether to give R1 home or not due to F2s actions. Did he possess the thrown ball and the F2 caused it to go out of play which likely would have awarded R1 home or was the reason the throw went out of play because of the Time of Throw from the outfielder. 

It appears as though they judged that it was from the outfielder's original throw.

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I'm not tracking. To my knowledge is no rule that gives a runner one base on a thrown ball from the outfield. Thrown balls (except from the rubber) are all two base awards. 

The only thing I believe they were reviewing was whether to give R1 home or not due to F2s actions. Did he possess the thrown ball and the F2 caused it to go out of play which likely would have awarded R1 home or was the reason the throw went out of play because of the Time of Throw from the outfielder. 

It appears as though they judged that it was from the outfielder's original throw.

Or R2 was not at 2B yet when Gomes went in the dugout while possessing the ball. 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Or R2 was not at 2B yet when Gomes went in the dugout while possessing the ball. 

Early in the video, from a camera behind home, you can see R1 nearly at second as the ball is reaching F2.  It seems likely from that view that R1 would have been at second by the time the ball went in the dugout.

[Jimurray]

Just now, noumpere said:

Early in the video, from a camera behind home, you can see R1 nearly at second as the ball is reaching F2.  It seems likely from that view that R1 would have been at second by the time the ball went in the dugout.

So they judged it a throw by the outfielder going out of play or improperly applied a "catch" and carry. But I don't think the ball went into the dugout. The fielder did.

[johnnyg08]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

So they judged it a throw by the outfielder going out of play or improperly applied a "catch" and carry. But I don't think the ball went into the dugout. The fielder did.

I think they judged that it was all one continuous action originating from the outfielder's throw. 

2 bases from the Time of the Throw would put R1 on third base. 

[Jimurray]

16 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I think they judged that it was all one continuous action originating from the outfielder's throw. 

2 bases from the Time of the Throw would put R1 on third base. 

That could be what they judged. But the catcher's misplay of the throw redirected the ball towards the dugout. How that is still considered the outfielder's  throw I don't know. Then the catcher gloved the ball on the edge of the inner  lip of the dugout. I consider it still live at that point but maybe NY saw it past the inner lip of the dugout. That would put R1 at 3B because he wasn't at 2B at the time of the catcher's muff. If you judge the ball still live as the catcher swings it back, more into LBT, the ball doesn't become dead until one foot of the catcher hits inside the dugout. R1 was probably at 2B at that point. Of course MLB will explain exactly what was called.

Edited to add: Since the throw was not intentionally deflected it can still be a time of outfielders throw award. That plus a judgement that the ball crossed into the dugout over the inner lip could make the award to R1 correct.

[umpstu]

Did the catcher get possession of the ball after it was on top of the concrete or did the ball hit the lip of the concrete and bounce back into the catchers glove?

[Thatsnotyou]

There is one part I’m not following here. If a player possesses the ball and is standing out of play, isn’t that ball out of play by definition? Does it really matter that he’s holding the ball “in play”?

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, Jimurray said:

So they judged it a throw by the outfielder going out of play or improperly applied a "catch" and carry. But I don't think the ball went into the dugout. The fielder did.

If the fielder has the ball and the fielder is in DBT, the ball is in DBT.

 

This is the opposite of the fair /foul rule (where the position of the ball matters).

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, noumpere said:

If the fielder has the ball and the fielder is in DBT, the ball is in DBT.

 

This is the opposite of the fair /foul rule (where the position of the ball matters).

I understand. Either the ball went out of play over the inside lip as Gomes gloved it or Gomez stepped into the dugout and R1 was not yet at 2B when that happened. 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

I understand. Either the ball went out of play over the inside lip as Gomes gloved it or Gomez stepped into the dugout and R1 was not yet at 2B when that happened. 

I disagree.  I think the ball never entered "over DBT" and that R1 was at second when F2 went in the dugout with the ball.

 

But, it's still a TOT award, just as if the ball had deflected off of F2 and went in the dugout directly.

If F2 possessed the ball outside the dugout and then INTENTIONALLY entered the dugout, that "entering" becomes the TOT.  But (typo corrected), on an inadvertent carry due to momentum, it's the original TOT that matters -- and R1 was not at second at that time.

[johnnyg08]

22 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I disagree.  I think the ball never entered "over DBT" and that R1 was at second when F2 went in the dugout with the ball.

 

But, it's still a TOT award, just as if the ball had deflected off of F2 and went in the dugout directly.

If F2 possessed the ball outside the dugout and then INTENTIONALLY entered the dugout, that "entering" becomes the TOT.  Nut, on an inadvertent carry due to momentum, it's the original TOT that matters -- and R1 was not at second at that time.

Exactly the point I've been attempting to make for two days. Thank you. 

[Jimurray]

53 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Exactly the point I've been attempting to make for two days. Thank you. 

I think I now agree with the point you and @noumpere have made. A ten minute delay and three headset visits become understandable.