What's The Call?

[Guest Bruce]

Had a once in a lifetime freak play last week in a high school game.

Two outs no one on. Very windy day. High popup on the 1B line, the 1Bman is trying to get under it like 12 feet foul. The batter-runner is at 1B already, standing on the base, as the ball is coming down. The wind blows the ball back fair at the last second, and the fair ball hits the batter-runner on the foot in fair territory as he is standing on the base. The 1Bman is like 8-10 feet away in foul territory having already missed his chance to catch the ball. No other fielder was near the batter-runner with any chance to make a play.

I did not call the batter-runner out because there was nobody near him with a chance to catch the ball, and there was no play for anybody to throw him out at first because he was already at first. But I know it may have been the wrong call. The batter-runner may have to be called out no matter what.

The interpreters here in NJ agreed with my call, including the state interpreter, Craig Yetman. The NCAA rulebook states that if a fair ball hits the batter-runner in fair territory before the ball touches a fielder that the batter-runner is out, so I assume he'd be out under those rules. Not sure about the pro ruling.

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

25 minutes ago, Guest Bruce said:

Had a once in a lifetime freak play last week in a high school game.

Two outs no one on. Very windy day. High popup on the 1B line, the 1Bman is trying to get under it like 12 feet foul. The batter-runner is at 1B already, standing on the base, as the ball is coming down. The wind blows the ball back fair at the last second, and the fair ball hits the batter-runner on the foot in fair territory as he is standing on the base. The 1Bman is like 8-10 feet away in foul territory having already missed his chance to catch the ball. No other fielder was near the batter-runner with any chance to make a play.

I did not call the batter-runner out because there was nobody near him with a chance to catch the ball, and there was no play for anybody to throw him out at first because he was already at first. But I know it may have been the wrong call. The batter-runner may have to be called out no matter what.

The interpreters here in NJ agreed with my call, including the state interpreter, Craig Yetman. The NCAA rulebook states that if a fair ball hits the batter-runner in fair territory before the ball touches a fielder that the batter-runner is out, so I assume he'd be out under those rules. Not sure about the pro ruling.

 

 

 

You made the correct ruling for FED and NCAA. We would apply this NCAA rule because the batter has become a runner:

”8-5-k.  The runner, including a runner in contact with a base, is hit while in fair territory by a batted ball before it has touched a fielder or passed all infielders who have a chance to make a play on the ball, other than the pitcher.If two runners are hit by the same fair ball, only the first runner is out (see 6-2-e).”

The runner would be out in Pro/OBR and they reworded one of the pertaining rules to make it clearer in OBR in the 2019 rules. 

[johnpatrick]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

"The runner would be out in Pro/OBR and they reworded one of the pertaining rules to make it clearer in OBR in the 2019 rules."

@Jimurray Can you tell me what that change was?  Thanks.

[Jimurray]

33 minutes ago, johnpatrick said:

@Jimurray Can you tell me what that change was?  Thanks.

A little busy right now. Check this out: Amended Rule 5.09(b)(7) regarding a runner who is struck by a batted ball before it has gone through or by an infielder.

 

[SavoyBG]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

You made the correct ruling for FED and NCAA. We would apply this NCAA rule because the batter has become a runner:

”8-5-k.  The runner, including a runner in contact with a base, is hit while in fair territory by a batted ball before it has touched a fielder or passed all infielders who have a chance to make a play on the ball, other than the pitcher.If two runners are hit by the same fair ball, only the first runner is out (see 6-2-e).”

The runner would be out in Pro/OBR and they reworded one of the pertaining rules to make it clearer in OBR in the 2019 rules. 

According to another "Ask the Umpire" guy, the batter-runner does not become merely a runner until all playing action is over. Is that wrong?

 

 

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, SavoyBG said:

According to another "Ask the Umpire" guy, the batter-runner does not become merely a runner until all playing action is over. Is that wrong?

 

 

A semantic problem. NCAA rules give you an option. 

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Jimurray, I would like to know why the rule you cited, 8-5k, supersedes the two following NCAA rules.

2017-18 NCAA rule 2

Batter-Runner

SECTION 10. A term that identifies the offensive player who has just finished the time at bat and is either put out or becomes a runner before the play ends.

NCAA rule 7-11 A batter is out when…

l. A batted fair ball touches the batter-runner outside of the batter’s box before touching a fielder;

[Jimurray]

10 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Jimurray, I would like to know why the rule you cited, 8-5k, supersedes the two following NCAA rules.

2017-18 NCAA rule 2

Batter-Runner

SECTION 10. A term that identifies the offensive player who has just finished the time at bat and is either put out or becomes a runner before the play ends.

NCAA rule 7-11 A batter is out when…

l. A batted fair ball touches the batter-runner outside of the batter’s box before touching a fielder;

It's a little vague but I think 8-2-a allows us to treat him as a runner:

"Batter Becomes Base Runner
SECTION 2. The batter becomes a base runner:
a.    Instantly after the individual makes a fair hit;"

[beerguy55]

8 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

It's a little vague but I think 8-2-a allows us to treat him as a runner:

"Batter Becomes Base Runner
SECTION 2. The batter becomes a base runner:
a.    Instantly after the individual makes a fair hit;"

Chicken - egg?   In the OP it's not fair until the ball hits the B/R.

It's not a "hit" until the B/R reaches first (which does apply here)...but if the first thing the ball hits in fair territory is the runner is it a hit?

 

[Jimurray]

14 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Chicken - egg?   In the OP it's not fair until the ball hits the B/R.

It's not a "hit" until the B/R reaches first (which does apply here)...but if the first thing the ball hits in fair territory is the runner is it a hit?

 

The ball might be fair prior to the touch if it passed the front edge of the bag (NCAA) or the imaginary line between 1B and 3B (FED). But who knows what "makes a fair hit" means exactly.

[SavoyBG]

42 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The ball might be fair prior to the touch if it passed the front edge of the bag (NCAA) or the imaginary line between 1B and 3B (FED). But who knows what "makes a fair hit" means exactly.

Passing the front edge of the bag does not mean anything when the ball is still in the air and has not hit the ground or a fielder yet yet. Lots of long fly balls down the line are fair in the air when they pass the base but end up way foul.

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, SavoyBG said:

Passing the front edge of the bag does not mean anything when the ball is still in the air. Lots of long fly balls down the line are fair in the air when they pass the base but end up way foul.

I was picturing a bounding ball as the OP said the fair ball hits the B-R in fair territory. But if it still was a fly ball that hit the B-R in fair territory then we do have a chicken-egg problem.

[Senor Azul]

Well, Mr. Jimurray, you certainly did not convince me with that answer. I think in all three codes it is simply interference when the batter-runner’s batted ball contacts him over fair territory (when he is out of the box, of course).

In the OP, the play had not ended and by definition in each code the batter is still considered to be a batter-runner. Heck, fair-foul status had not even been determined until the batted ball actually hit the batter-runner. And you know as well as I do that being on a base does not protect you from the interference call (except on an infield fly).

[Replacematt]

18 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Well, Mr. Jimurray, you certainly did not convince me with that answer. I think in all three codes it is simply interference when the batter-runner’s batted ball contacts him over fair territory (when he is out of the box, of course).

In the OP, the play had not ended and by definition in each code the batter is still considered to be a batter-runner. Heck, fair-foul status had not even been determined until the batted ball actually hit the batter-runner. And you know as well as I do that being on a base does not protect you from the interference call (except on an infield fly).

I'm the one that directed the OP to this board, just for full disclosure.

I had it as an out in all codes for this very reason.

[Jimurray]

20 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Well, Mr. Jimurray, you certainly did not convince me with that answer. I think in all three codes it is simply interference when the batter-runner’s batted ball contacts him over fair territory (when he is out of the box, of course).

In the OP, the play had not ended and by definition in each code the batter is still considered to be a batter-runner. Heck, fair-foul status had not even been determined until the batted ball actually hit the batter-runner. And you know as well as I do that being on a base does not protect you from the interference call (except on an infield fly).

FED also defines the runner to include the batter-runner and in OBR the runner is any offensive player who is advancing, touching or returning to any base. In this rare OP I think it's cleaner to treat the guy on 1B as a runner. But in OBR he would be out whether he was a B-R or a runner. And we need more info to determine whether the ball was fair before it touched the runner.

[Replacematt]

6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

FED also defines the runner to include the batter-runner and in OBR the runner is any offensive player who is advancing, touching or returning to any base. In this rare OP I think it's cleaner to treat the guy on 1B as a runner. But in OBR he would be out whether he was a B-R or a runner. And we need more info to determine whether the ball was fair before it touched the runner.

If we were supposed to treat the BR as a runner, then why have separate rules for each being touched by a batted ball?

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, Matt said:

If we were supposed to treat the BR as a runner, then why have separate rules for each being touched by a batted ball?

I think the B-R rule envisions from not being in a legal position in the box to contact with the ball while running down the 1B line. In FED and NCAA if it was R1 standing on 1B he would not be out. Change it to B-R and he is out?

[Replacematt]

6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I think the B-R rule envisions from not being in a legal position in the box to contact with the ball while running down the 1B line. In FED and NCAA if it was R1 standing on 1B he would not be out. Change it to B-R and he is out?

Why would R1 not be out?

[Senor Azul]

I have to laugh, Mr. Jimurray. In your response to Mr. SavoyBG, you dismiss his question (which I consider to be a very good question) as mere semantics. Then you totally rely on semantics as support for your position on this question—

"The ball might be fair prior to the touch if it passed the front edge of the bag (NCAA) or the imaginary line between 1B and 3B (FED). But who knows what "makes a fair hit" means exactly.”

“And we need more info to determine whether the ball was fair before it touched the runner.”

Besides your liberal use of semantics, why would you spoil such a rare occurrence as Mr. Matt and I agreeing on something? You should just revel in that fact alone.

[Jimurray]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Why would R1 not be out?

From the OP I envisioned F3 in front of the runner and no other fielder near enough to make a play. I'm assuming the position of F4 puts the ball past him also. 

[Replacematt]

57 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

From the OP I envisioned F3 in front of the runner and no other fielder near enough to make a play. I'm assuming the position of F4 puts the ball past him also. 

Let's try not to assume things without annotating those assumptions--this is confusing enough having to rely on verbal descriptions of what actually occurred.

As I have stated, though, it's a moot point--we have a B/R, not a regular runner. 
 

[SavoyBG]

7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I was picturing a bounding ball as the OP said the fair ball hits the B-R in fair territory.

I'm the OP and I clearly said that it was a high popup. Did you even read the first post? How could a bounding ball hit the batter runner after he was on first base?

 

 

[SavoyBG]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

From the OP I envisioned F3 in front of the runner and no other fielder near enough to make a play. I'm assuming the position of F4 puts the ball past him also. 

F4 was deep in the back of the infield. The ball did not pass him, but he had no play.

[Replacematt]

6 minutes ago, SavoyBG said:

F4 was deep in the back of the infield. The ball did not pass him, but he had no play.

With that, even if we were to take the thin-limb assertion that this should be treated like any other runner, we still have an out in FED and OBR. NCAA would still be up in the air (unlike the ball.)

[SavoyBG]

7 minutes ago, Matt said:

With that, even if we were to take the thin-limb assertion that this should be treated like any other runner, we still have an out in FED and OBR. NCAA would still be up in the air (unlike the ball.)

Why would you have an out if the ball passed F3 and F4 had no play?  Once it passed F3 it doesn't matter where F4 is if he has no play.

[Replacematt]

19 minutes ago, SavoyBG said:

Why would you have an out if the ball passed F3 and F4 had no play?  Once it passed F3 it doesn't matter where F4 is if he has no play.

Because for the purposes of this rule, it had not passed an infielder. OBR considers passing to be within the immediate reach of a fielder, and FED considers passing to be beyond a line drawn between all the infielders.

NCAA treats passing the same as OBR, but there's something about the way the rule is written above that just isn't jiving with something on my mind.