BOO - Who leads off?

[johnnyg08]

NFHS

B4. 2 out, bases loaded. Jones is batting 8th in the lineup, Smith is the 9 hitter. 

Smith hits out of order in Jones' spot in the lineup.

Smith grounds out to F6 to end the half inning.

Before the top of the 5th begins, the defensive coach comes to the plate umpire and says..."they batted out of order, do they start the next half inning with an out?"

They retire the side in the T5 and head to the bottom of the 5th. Before the bottom of the 5th begins, the offensive head coach comes up to the plate umpire and says "We batted out of order in the B4, who do we send to the plate to get this right and do we start the half inning with one out?" 

How do you respond? 

 

 

[Rich Ives]

The batter who should have batted is out - Jones.

Smith's out never happened.

Smith leads off.

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

NFHS

B4. 2 out, bases loaded. Jones is batting 8th in the lineup, Smith is the 9 hitter. 

Smith hits out of order in Jones' spot in the lineup.

Smith grounds out to F6 to end the half inning.

Before the top of the 5th begins, the defensive coach comes to the plate umpire and says..."they batted out of order, do they start the next half inning with an out?"

They retire the side in the T5 and head to the bottom of the 5th. Before the bottom of the 5th begins, the offensive head coach comes up to the plate umpire and says "We batted out of order in the B4, who do we send to the plate to get this right and do we start the half inning with one out?" 

How do you respond? 

 

 

I forget -- does NFHS allow a BOO appeal before the next pitch to either team (like OBR) or is it required before the defense leaves the field?

In any event, you don't need to respond to the offensive coach, because he won't ask -- you've clarified withe everyone who is out (Jones or Smith) and who bats next (Smith or Abel) once the defensive team makes the BOO appeal (that's what it was) after the inning.

[maven]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I forget -- does NFHS allow a BOO appeal before the next pitch to either team (like OBR) or is it required before the defense leaves the field?

Before the infielders leave the diamond (cross the foul lines). 7-1-1 PENALTIES (2)

Sounds like coach might have been too late: if so, the appeal should be denied, Smith's out counts, Jones is skipped, and the top of the lineup would lead off the next inning.

In no case does an inning start with an out! Ha!

[udbrky]

What about when the wrong batter k's, and offense comes up and says "we batted out of order"?

 

K stands, bring up the batter who would be next? (would've been the same batter that just k'd)

bring up correct batter?

Go onto the next batter and defense has to appeal?

[maven]

35 minutes ago, udbrky said:

What about when the wrong batter k's, and offense comes up and says "we batted out of order"?

Ignored by rule. "Only the defensive team may appeal batting out of order after the batter has completed his time at bat." 7-1-1

Of course, when the defense hears the offense announce this, then they could appeal, and we'd rule on that.

The K is nullified, the proper batter is out for MYTAB, and the next batter due up is whoever follows the proper batter in the lineup.

[udbrky]

2 minutes ago, maven said:

Ignored by rule. "Only the defensive team may appeal batting out of order after the batter has completed his time at bat." 7-1-1

Of course, when the defense hears the offense announce this, then they could appeal, and we'd rule on that.

The K is nullified, the proper batter is out for MYTAB, and the next batter due up is whoever follows the proper batter in the lineup.

Thanks. I'm not even sure the defensive team would have appealed. It was a men's league game, they weren't keeping a book, and aren't that savvy.

[johnnyg08]

Well, I'll be darned. BOO in the Mets/Reds game today. 

https://www.mlb.com/video/reds-get-out-after-mets-mishap/c-2024119083

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2018/05/09/new-york-mets-bat-out-order-against-cincinnati-reds-gabp/594904002/

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23451974/new-york-mets-bat-order-first-inning-cincinnati-reds

I would like to see the lineup card the umpire had. I'm trying to figure out how Jay Bruce is the one they "called out" and how González led off their next 1/2 inning.

My head is close to exploding. Can somebody break this down for me? Thank you.

According to this lineup Cabrera and Flores flip-flopped. Nimmo struck out looking, Flores hit 2nd (out of order, but made an out) and Cabrera came to hit third and doubled with 2 out. 

So a pitch to Cabrera actually legitimized Flores' at bat this time around  and the next proper batter should have been Bruce so Cabrera gets skipped and that's why González led off? Is that what happened? 

I will admit, I struggle lining this up in my brain.

Thanks for your help. 

[maven]

The original lineup must have been: Nimmo, Cabrera, Flores, Bruce, Gonzalez. That's under the "original" column on the dugout lineup.

The manager decided to swap the 2 and 3 holes, and told the bench coach to make the lineup: Nimmo, Flores, Cabrera, Bruce, Gonzalez. That's what's posted under the "umpire" column in the dugout, and that's who came to bat in the 1st for the Mets.

But the bench coach screwed up, and he never made the switch. The umpire had the original lineup.

Nimmo batted first and made an out.

Cabrera should be next, but Flores batted and made an out, 2 outs in the inning. The defense said nothing.

A pitch to Cabrera legalized Flores's at bat and made Bruce the proper batter.

Cabrera doubled, and the defense appealed. Bruce was the proper batter, so he was called out, 3 outs, Gonzalez to bat next.

That seems to explain everything.

[noumpere]

16 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

According to this lineup Cabrera and Flores flip-flopped. Nimmo struck out looking, Flores hit 2nd (out of order, but made an out) and Cabrera came to hit third and doubled with 2 out. 

So a pitch to Cabrera actually legitimized Flores' at bat this time around  and the next proper batter should have been Bruce so Cabrera gets skipped and that's why González led off? Is that what happened? 

I will admit, I struggle lining this up in my brain.

Thanks for your help. 

 

You might have struggled, but you got it right.  Pretty stright-forward, and a good job (assuming it was intentional) by the Reds in bringing it up at the right time (take the out by Flores -- don't mention it; remove the double by Cabrera)

[johnnyg08]

21 minutes ago, noumpere said:

You might have struggled, but you got it right.  Pretty stright-forward, and a good job (assuming it was intentional) by the Reds in bringing it up at the right time (take the out by Flores -- don't mention it; remove the double by Cabrera)

So how long could this have gone on? Once Bruce comes up and takes one pitch is it all over at that point through the lineup? Or until they come up again I suppose...since that the lineup that was in the dugout. Assuming everything else in the lineup is correct of course. 

 

 

[maven]

49 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

So how long could this have gone on? Once Bruce comes up and takes one pitch is it all over at that point through the lineup? Or until they come up again I suppose...since that the lineup that was in the dugout. Assuming everything else in the lineup is correct of course.

It can go on indefinitely. Why not wait till you gain an advantage?

[noumpere]

50 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

So how long could this have gone on? Once Bruce comes up and takes one pitch is it all over at that point through the lineup? Or until they come up again I suppose...since that the lineup that was in the dugout. Assuming everything else in the lineup is correct of course. 

 

 

Yep -- and especially at youth levels, waiting until the next time through (when there might be a (bigger) hit can work -- unless the umpire falls for the "well, BOO once legitimizes that lineup" myth)

[johnnyg08]

It can go on indefinitely. Why not wait till you gain an advantage?

I understand that...but in terms of how this would have played out...if Bruce comes to hit are they back on track that time through or not?

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[noumpere]

1 minute ago, johnnyg08 said:

I understand that...but in terms of how this would have played out...if Bruce comes to hit are they back on track that time through or not?

 

Once a pitch is thrown to the next batter of either team , the last at bat is "legitimized."  That was Cabrera.  So, who follows Cabrera in the line-up?  (rhetorical) He's the one who should bat next.  What happens if Bruce bats instead? (also rhetorical)

 

 

[maven]

2 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I understand that...but in terms of how this would have played out...if Bruce comes to hit are they back on track that time through or not?

 

No, not yet. A pitch to Bruce makes Cabrera's at bat legal, making Flores the proper batter. If Bruce gets a hit, Flores can be appealed for MYTAB and called out.

Now if nobody's wise at that point and Gonzalez gets a pitch, that makes Bruce legal and Gonzalez the proper batter. Then they're on track.

[johnnyg08]

59 minutes ago, maven said:

No, not yet. A pitch to Bruce makes Cabrera's at bat legal, making Flores the proper batter. If Bruce gets a hit, Flores can be appealed for MYTAB and called out.

Now if nobody's wise at that point and Gonzalez gets a pitch, that makes Bruce legal and Gonzalez the proper batter. Then they're on track.

So they would have had to bring Flores up again (at the right time) if the offense caught it to fix it? Or are they simply screwed at that point? 

[noumpere]

23 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

So they would have had to bring Flores up again (at the right time) if the offense caught it to fix it? Or are they simply screwed at that point? 

Flores is the proper batter.  If Flores appears to bat, then all is well.  If not, it's (potentially) BOO (or MYTAB).  It's not that hard.

[johnnyg08]

6 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Flores is the proper batter.  If Flores appears to bat, then all is well.  If not, it's (potentially) BOO (or MYTAB).  It's not that hard.

It's not. In my part of the world, we NEVER see it and there are lots of myths and confusion around what is supposed to happen. I have been told things that simply aren't true either...so I'm getting my head right on this...not to mention it was a fun coincidence that not 24 hours after it happened to me in my game, it happened yesterday in mlb 

My evidence for that is in the original post, both coaches (offense and defense) assumed, and were okay with starting the next bottom of the inning w/ one out due to the "BOO penalty" that doesn't exist. 

In fact they were both surprised when we told them that was not how it worked. 

So when you hear an umpire say "both coaches agreed, so that's what we did" get very nervous. :-) 

[maven]

It happens in MLB just as it happened the other day: skipper makes a late lineup change and writes it on the board. Bench coach fails to make the change on the lineup he hands the umpire.