Is this obstruction under FED rules?

[Gfoley4]

https://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/mp4/2018/05/05/2010736983/1525562331852/asset_2500K.mp4

[Mike D]

Yes. Warning and then ejection of it happens again.
3.3.1(b)
8.3.2



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[Gfoley4]

18 minutes ago, Mike D said:

Yes. Warning and then ejection of it happens again.
3.3.1(b)
8.3.2



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What’s the award on this then? R1 is protected back to first?

[umpstu]

31 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

https://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/mp4/2018/05/05/2010736983/1525562331852/asset_2500K.mp4

It certainly was a good job by the SS.

[Mike D]

In NFHS, obstruction is always a 1 base award from the position on the bases. The award is always forward. Since this happened going into 2nd he would be protected to 2nd base and/or awarded 2nd.

As the obstruction happened, the umpire would point and say, "that's obsteuction" and wait for the playing action to cease. As the defense attempted the appeal at 1st for leaving early, the play would be killed and the award made to 2nd. The runner would then have the opportunity to complete his running responsibilities (tagging up at 1st then completing the award). If the runner did not tag up, the defense could then appeal the leaving early/not retouching 1st when the ball is put back into play.

What’s the award on this then? R1 is protected back to first?

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[maven]

Quote

8.3.2 SITUATION B: While (a) B1 is moving toward second base on a hit to right-center field, F6, who does not have the ball in his possession, fakes a tag on B1 or (b) B1 is returning to first base and F3, who does not have the ball, fakes a tag on B1.

RULING: In both cases it is ruled obstruction, and B1 is awarded second base or if, in the umpire’s judgment, the runner could have advanced farther had obstruction not occurred, the umpire could award additional bases.

I post this to point out that, despite the fact that the OBS occurred at 2B, the runner's last legally touched base is 1B. His mandatory minimum 1 base award, then, is to 2B, not 3B.

Some might wonder whether, in addition to nullifying the out on the retouch appeal of R1, we might also award the retouch of 1B itself. I would recommend against doing so: the purpose of the award penalty is to nullify the act of OBS. We might award a touch of a missed base, for example, when the miss of the base was caused by a fielder's OBS. We would not in that case require the obstructed runner to return and touch the missed base.

In this case, the OBS might have delayed the retouch, which allowed the defense time to appeal the failure to retouch. So we nullify the out on appeal. But the OBS did not prevent the retouch, which may be completed after the ball is dead and prior to the award being taken. So the award need not include the retouch itself in order to fully nullify the OBS.

[ElkOil]

1 hour ago, Mike D said:

The runner would then have the opportunity to complete his running responsibilities (tagging up at 1st then completing the award). If the runner did not tag up, the defense could then appeal the leaving early/not retouching 1st when the ball is put back into play.

 

As you envision this, do you mean that while the ball is dead, the runner would job back to 1B, touch it, then jog back to 2B? If I follow correctly, this isn't required since you awarded 2B to the runner, negating the need to retouch 1B. Because in terms of practicality, it can't be done since the ball is dead anyway. The award of 2B wasn't conditional, so you could just continue with the runner on 2B.

[Mike D]

As you envision this, do you mean that while the ball is dead, the runner would job back to 1B, touch it, then jog back to 2B? If I follow correctly, this isn't required since you awarded 2B to the runner, negating the need to retouch 1B. Because in terms of practicality, it can't be done since the ball is dead anyway. The award of 2B wasn't conditional, so you could just continue with the runner on 2B.

Yes, the runner must correct base running errors during awards. Here is a case that shows this
8.2.6 SITUATION C: R1 is on first base when B2 hits a fly ball to F9 who overthrows first base in an attempt to double up R1. The throw goes wild and into the dugout. R1 is awarded second base and third base. (a) R1 fails to retouch first base, or (b) R1 fails to touch second base on his way to third base. RULING: Upon proper defensive appeal, the umpire will declare R1 out in (a) and (b).

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[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, ElkOil said:

As you envision this, do you mean that while the ball is dead, the runner would job back to 1B, touch it, then jog back to 2B? If I follow correctly, this isn't required since you awarded 2B to the runner, negating the need to retouch 1B. Because in terms of practicality, it can't be done since the ball is dead anyway. The award of 2B wasn't conditional, so you could just continue with the runner on 2B.

Why do you think this?

[ElkOil]

3 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Why do you think this?

FED 5-2-2-b-1 states:

A runner who is on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball became dead, may not return and shall be called out upon proper and successful appeal (8-4-2q).

And 8-2-6-d states:

d. May Not Return. A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if: 1. he has reached a base beyond the base missed or left too soon and the ball becomes dead, 2. he has left the

As I pictured Mike D's scenario (and he confirmed since), this wouldn't be possible since the runner had acquired 2B due to the award. 

But I'm assuming that since you asked, I must wrong.

[maven]

6 hours ago, ElkOil said:

As I pictured Mike D's scenario (and he confirmed since), this wouldn't be possible since the runner had acquired 2B due to the award. 

But I'm assuming that since you asked, I must wrong.

The order of events should be:

1. Call the OBS (live ball)
2. Wait till the end of playing action
3. Kill it
4. Make the base award

If you're worried about 5-2-2b putting R1 at a disadvantage (by preventing him from retouching 1B), wait to do (3) until he steps off 2B (if he's there at all).

I'm not telling R1 to retouch, but I might tell everyone why I'm waiting to make the award. "I'm waiting for the base runners to complete their baserunning responsibilities before making a base award, as required by rule." Or some such.

If the offense infers from that statement that R1 needs to retouch, maybe F4's lesson about fake tags will get a smidge more reinforcement.

[grayhawk]

FED 5-2-2-b-1 states:
A runner who is on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball became dead, may not return and shall be called out upon proper and successful appeal (8-4-2q).
And 8-2-6-d states:
d. May Not Return. A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if: 1. he has reached a base beyond the base missed or left too soon and the ball becomes dead, 2. he has left the
As I pictured Mike D's scenario (and he confirmed since), this wouldn't be possible since the runner had acquired 2B due to the award. 
But I'm assuming that since you asked, I must wrong.

I suspected that’s what you were getting at. Since we’re calling time to make the award due to the defense’s infraction, there’s no way I’m calling R1 out on appeal if he does go back and retouch. That wouldn’t be the spirit of that rule at all.

[Richvee]

I always looked at 5-2-2 b 1 as the ball being dead because of a throw, and not because we called time.

5-2-2 c covers the OP better. Allowing the runner to correct baserunning errors during the dead ball.

[ElkOil]

2 hours ago, maven said:

The order of events should be:

1. Call the OBS (live ball)
2. Wait till the end of playing action
3. Kill it
4. Make the base award

If you're worried about 5-2-2b putting R1 at a disadvantage (by preventing him from retouching 1B), wait to do (3) until he steps off 2B (if he's there at all).

I'm not telling R1 to retouch, but I might tell everyone why I'm waiting to make the award. "I'm waiting for the base runners to complete their baserunning responsibilities before making a base award, as required by rule." Or some such.

If the offense infers from that statement that R1 needs to retouch, maybe F4's lesson about fake tags will get a smidge more reinforcement.

 

2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I suspected that’s what you were getting at. Since we’re calling time to make the award due to the defense’s infraction, there’s no way I’m calling R1 out on appeal if he does go back and retouch. That wouldn’t be the spirit of that rule at all.

 

Thanks, fellas.