Double Switch??

[NovaScotiaBlue]

Set Up Details:
Men's League - Caliber is mediocre and down, Uses OBR, Both teams using DH

In the 6th. visitors on defence. Manager calls time heads to the mound obviously to make a pitching change.
I go to the mound and he advises that the starting pitcher is moving right field, a new pitcher is entering the game, and the DH is done.
The pitcher entering the game will bat in the DH slot and the old pitcher will bat in the right fielders slot.
While heading back to home plate I shout the changes to the home teams bench, who's manager becomes upset citing this was a double switch and he needed to go to the home plate umpire (me) before heading to the mound, and it should not be allowed.  I felt for this level of ball that was not necessary as most players and managers and perhaps even this umpire have no idea what a double switch is.
Long and short of it, he keeps up complaining and I eventually dump him.

So, Is this a double switch?
How many of you enforce the rule to the letter?

 

 

.
  

[gnhbua93]

Sad to say but the rat is right

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[Jimurray]

10 minutes ago, gnhbua93 said:

Sad to say but the rat is right

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There is no "double switch" possible when you have a DH. The requirement to announce it is only when playing "straight nine". This is just an application of the DH rule. And if it was a double switch he can't signal for the pitcher before he tells you it's a double switch  so what he did would be ok.

 

[NovaScotiaBlue]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

There is no "double switch" possible when you have a DH. The requirement to announce it is only when playing "straight nine". This is just an application of the DH rule. 

 

That's what I thought. I'm getting conflicting answers from my brethren here, so I thought I would see what the peoples here had to say 

[Rich Ives]

NOT a double switch. In a double switch TWO subs enter. You only have one entering. The pitcher is already in the game is he not?

[NovaScotiaBlue]

Just now, Rich Ives said:

NOT a double switch. In a double switch TWO subs enter. You only have one entering. The pitcher is already in the game is he not?

Yes the starter remained in the game. He went to play right and a new pitcher came in from the bench

 

[kylehutson]

So your only sub is the new pitcher for the right fielder. The DH (presumably in the same lineup spot as the pitcher) is now gone.

The new pitcher needs to go in the right fielder's place in the batting order, so this part:

33 minutes ago, NovaScotiaBlue said:

The pitcher entering the game will bat in the DH slot and the old pitcher will bat in the right fielders slot.

would be wrong.

 

[Jimurray]

23 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

So your only sub is the new pitcher for the right fielder. The DH (presumably in the same lineup spot as the pitcher) is now gone.

The new pitcher needs to go in the right fielder's place in the batting order, so this part:

would be wrong.

 

I think the manager could have the old pitcher bat for the RF and the new pitcher bat for the DH, OR what you said. He has a choice. The batting order won't be changed by either choice.

[kylehutson]

11 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I think the manager could have the old pitcher bat for the RF and the new pitcher bat for the DH, OR what you said. He has a choice. The batting order won't be changed by either choice.

The old pitcher (presumably, he didn't say explicitly here, but I think it's a fair assumption), hadn't been playing offense. That means his place in the batting order is locked in with the DH. Once the DH is eliminated, he has that spot - not another place where he hasn't been before (the right fielder in this case).

[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

The old pitcher (presumably, he didn't say explicitly here, but I think it's a fair assumption), hadn't been playing offense. That means his place in the batting order is locked in with the DH. Once the DH is eliminated, he has that spot - not another place where he hasn't been before (the right fielder in this case).

I believe PBUC/MLBUM allows the choice. Because it could be done a roundabout way. New player in for DH, DH coming in to pitch, old pitcher in for RF on defense. The 10 spot is not a place in the batting order and he hasn't been in the DH slot yet.

[noumpere]

This is from J/R.  See play 2.  Substitute LF for RF in the OP.  Note the word "must."

 

NCAA is explicit within the rule book.  It's available on-line.

 

EXAMPLES: LOSS OF DH ROLE
Assume a lineup card is written as follows:
Adams 9
Bacon 4
Cooper 8
Darwin 2
Eliot DH
Frost 3
Grant 7
Hugo 5
Irving 6
-----------------------------------------
James 1
King
Leo
Mills
1– Darwin is injured and replaced on defense by Eliot: loss of DH (but not the player who was the
DH). James must bat in the fourth slot. [Suppose Eliot and Mills replace Darwin and Bacon
respectively. The manager could enter James in the second slot and Mills in the fourth slot (see
Chapter 20, p. 95).]
2– King is the reliever and James goes to left field: loss of DH role (and the DH, Eliot).
King must bat in the DH slot; because Grant is replaced, James enters the seventh
slot. [Suppose Grant is replaced, James enters the seventh slot.]
3– Adams is the reliever and James remains in the game in right field: loss of DH role
(and the DH, Eliot). James bats in the fifth slot. [Suppose Grant is simultaneously
replaced by Leo; the manager could enter James in the seventh slot and Leo in the
fifth slot (see Chapter 20, p. 95).1
4– Cooper is the reliever and James is replaced: loss of DH role (and the DH, Eliot,
and James). Leo goes to center field and hits in the fifth slot. [Suppose Leo and
Mills assume positions of center field and shortstop, respectively; the manager
could have Leo bat in the ninth slot and enter Mills in the fifth slot (see Chapter
20, p. 95).]
5– King relieves James in the

[Jimurray]

21 minutes ago, noumpere said:

This is from J/R.  See play 2.  Substitute LF for RF in the OP.  Note the word "must."

 

NCAA is explicit within the rule book.  It's available on-line.

 

EXAMPLES: LOSS OF DH ROLE
Assume a lineup card is written as follows:
Adams 9
Bacon 4
Cooper 8
Darwin 2
Eliot DH
Frost 3
Grant 7
Hugo 5
Irving 6
-----------------------------------------
James 1
King
Leo
Mills
1– Darwin is injured and replaced on defense by Eliot: loss of DH (but not the player who was the
DH). James must bat in the fourth slot. [Suppose Eliot and Mills replace Darwin and Bacon
respectively. The manager could enter James in the second slot and Mills in the fourth slot (see
Chapter 20, p. 95).]
2– King is the reliever and James goes to left field: loss of DH role (and the DH, Eliot).
King must bat in the DH slot; because Grant is replaced, James enters the seventh
slot. [Suppose Grant is replaced, James enters the seventh slot.]
3– Adams is the reliever and James remains in the game in right field: loss of DH role
(and the DH, Eliot). James bats in the fifth slot. [Suppose Grant is simultaneously
replaced by Leo; the manager could enter James in the seventh slot and Leo in the
fifth slot (see Chapter 20, p. 95).1
4– Cooper is the reliever and James is replaced: loss of DH role (and the DH, Eliot,
and James). Leo goes to center field and hits in the fifth slot. [Suppose Leo and
Mills assume positions of center field and shortstop, respectively; the manager
could have Leo bat in the ninth slot and enter Mills in the fifth slot (see Chapter
20, p. 95).]
5– King relieves James in the

I wonder if must still applies with the current PBUC/MLBUM wording which is a little confusing. 

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I wonder if must still applies with the current PBUC/MLBUM wording which is a little confusing. 

Can you post it?  I an away from my books and only have on-line access to an old version -- but I don't recall it changing.

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Can you post it?  I an away from my books and only have on-line access to an old version -- but I don't recall it changing.

Does the old version have wording like this? Not exact but paraphrasing:

When the pitcher plays defense he may bat in the DH slot. If multiple subs are made the coach has a choice of where the pitcher will bat. 

[ALStripes17]

So your only sub is the new pitcher for the right fielder. The DH (presumably in the same lineup spot as the pitcher) is now gone.

The new pitcher needs to go in the right fielder's place in the batting order, so this part:

would be wrong.

 

NCAA and OBR have different rules regarding the DH than FED. The pitcher does NOT tie in to that spot in the batting order like FED requires.

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[Jimurray]

19 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Does the old version have wording like this? Not exact but paraphrasing:

When the pitcher plays defense he may bat in the DH slot. If multiple subs are made the coach has a choice of where the pitcher will bat. 

I think the reason a choice is allowed is that the coach can make changes in two different sequences to get either the pitcher or reliever in either slot. I mentioned one sequence above. The other option is reliever in for RF, now pitcher is going to play RF and RF is going to pitch. Both options would be straightforward changes on a lineup card. 

[kylehutson]

1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

NCAA and OBR have different rules regarding the DH than FED. The pitcher does NOT tie in to that spot in the batting order like FED requires.

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I didn't realize until seeing the J/R references here that they differed. FED 3-1-4 says explicitly: "A designated hitter and the ­player for whom he is batting are locked into the batting order." I knew my FED interp was right, because I allowed a similar substitution last spring, and then found out I shouldn't have.

[ALStripes17]

I didn't realize until seeing the J/R references here that they differed. FED 3-1-4 says explicitly: "A designated hitter and the ­player for whom he is batting are locked into the batting order." I knew my FED interp was right, because I allowed a similar substitution last spring, and then found out I shouldn't have.

Yup. FED makes it extremely easy to follow IMO.

OP described OBR so wanted to make sure you knew there exists a difference.

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[Jimurray]

49 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

I didn't realize until seeing the J/R references here that they differed. FED 3-1-4 says explicitly: "A designated hitter and the ­player for whom he is batting are locked into the batting order." I knew my FED interp was right, because I allowed a similar substitution last spring, and then found out I shouldn't have.

Can you explain using FED rules why the DH, assuming he was for the old pitcher, was eliminated when the pitcher changed defensive positions?

Also, do you have access to an OBR rule book?

[kylehutson]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

Can you explain using FED rules why the DH, assuming he was for the old pitcher, was eliminated when the pitcher changed defensive positions?

Also, do you have access to an OBR rule book?

In FED, the DH isn't eliminated then. He can continue to DH for James (using @noumpere's lineup above). He's eliminated when the coach says James is going to take Eliot's spot in the batting order (which may or may not be at the same time).

The only OBR rule book I have access to is here.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, kylehutson said:

In FED, the DH isn't eliminated then. He can continue to DH for James (using @noumpere's lineup above). He's eliminated when the coach says James is going to take Eliot's spot in the batting order (which may or may not be at the same time).

The only OBR rule book I have access to is here.

Ok, so when you said the DH was eliminated above you were applying the OBR rule and not FED. You only miss applied your FED "locked in" understanding to the OBR DH rule. In fact, I think the rule gives no guidance to the OP and you have to go to PBUC/MLBUM to find that the coach can choose who goes where if I interpret PBUC correctly. 

[ALStripes17]

In FED, the DH isn't eliminated then. He can continue to DH for James (using @noumpere's lineup above). He's eliminated when the coach says James is going to take Eliot's spot in the batting order (which may or may not be at the same time).

The only OBR rule book I have access to is here.

Aww careful there. The DH is not eliminated when the coach tells you that (projected subs not allowed). It doesn't happen until Eliot (or any subsequent sub) takes the field or James (or sub) hits for himself

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[kylehutson]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Ok, so when you said the DH was eliminated above you were applying the OBR rule and not FED. You only miss applied your FED "locked in" understanding to the OBR DH rule. In fact, I think the rule gives no guidance to the OP and you have to go to PBUC/MLBUM to find that the coach can choose who goes where if I interpret PBUC correctly. 

I said the DH was eliminated based on the OP's "I go to the mound and he advises that the starting pitcher is moving right field, a new pitcher is entering the game, and the DH is done." He's eliminated because the coach said so.

@ALStripes17, I had always interpreted the "projected subs" to be the coach giving a conditional (e.g., "if my first two batters get on base, I'm going to...") or a future (e.g., "next inning I'm going to ..."). If the coach tells me the DH is getting replaced by the batter he shares a spot with, the sub has been made - no take-backsies.

[ALStripes17]

I said the DH was eliminated based on the OP's "I go to the mound and he advises that the starting pitcher is moving right field, a new pitcher is entering the game, and the DH is done." He's eliminated because the coach said so.

@ALStripes17, I had always interpreted the "projected subs" to be the coach giving a conditional (e.g., "if my first two batters get on base, I'm going to...") or a future (e.g., "next inning I'm going to ..."). If the coach tells me the DH is getting replaced by the batter he shares a spot with, the sub has been made - no take-backsies.

Yet FED rule 3-1-4 states that the DH is only terminated under the previous two conditions I stated above. You can't project that either of those two things happen until they actually occur. You can't project that the 'defensive player' will assume the offensive role until he actually does something on offense the same way that the DH can't assume a defensive role until he is actually in the field.

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[noumpere]

8 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Does the old version have wording like this? Not exact but paraphrasing:

When the pitcher plays defense he may bat in the DH slot. If multiple subs are made the coach has a choice of where the pitcher will bat. 

Yes, it has that wording.  In NCAA this is NOT multiple subs (only one new defensive player is entering).  NCAA *usually* follows OBR on items like this.