Out or not Out?

[JoeC]

1st play:On a dropped third strike, the batter starts toward the dugout. He then starts towards first. By this time the catcher retrieved the ball and as he tries to tag the batter, the batter runs on the grass in front of the plate trying to avoid the tag from the  catcher. I called the batter out for being out of the baseline.

2nd play: Same as play #1 but the catcher did not try to tag the runner. I did not call the runner out on this one

If it matters playing by Fed rules

[ricka56]

The rule code does matter. In OBR if the batter leaves the dirt circle around HP, then he is out. In Fed, he's not out unless he enters the dugout. 

1. if he's out of the base path trying to avoid the tag, he is out. 
2. batter can run to 1B, the defense has to make a play on him.

[LittleBlue]

1st play: You have to judge when the play was being made on the BR and where the runner was at that moment. When you determine a play is being made on him, his baseline is defined as 3 feet to his left or right on a straight line from his position to the base he is going to. Since you said that he ran on to the grass in front of home to avoid the tag by the catcher, it sounds as if he was more than 3 feet out of the baseline and should be called out.

2nd Play: Since there was no play being made on the BR, besides the (I assume) attempted put out at 1st, he has no defined baseline, so he cannot be called out for being out of a baseline which does not exist.

The key here is to judge when a play is being made on a runner. When you determine that the fielder is trying to tag the runner, he can move 3 feet left or right on a direct line to the base he is going to. If he is out of the 3 feet, then he is out of the baseline and should be called out.

As Ricka pointed out, note the difference between OBR and FED when it comes to when to call a batter out for not trying to reach 1st on a D3K.

[catsbackr]

And 3 feet is a lot less than you think.  Reach out to your side with either arm, that's about 3 feet.

[James88]

The second play seems a little gray to me.  The OP stated the 2nd play was just like the first with the exception that the catcher did not try to make a play.  As stated in that original post, that means he ran into the grass to avoid the catcher making a play on him.  

If he ran far enough away that the catcher saw there was no point in trying to make a play, why would he still not be out?  If I understand the OP correctly, he clearly did that to get far enough away from the catcher so that he couldn't attempt a tag.  Granted, the catcher did not attempt a tag in the second scenario, but that may have been because the runner got far enough into the infield to make the attempt impossible.

 

[ALStripes17]

The second play seems a little gray to me.  The OP stated the 2nd play was just like the first with the exception that the catcher did not try to make a play.  As stated in that original post, that means he ran into the grass to avoid the catcher making a play on him.  

If he ran far enough away that the catcher saw there was no point in trying to make a play, why would he still not be out?  If I understand the OP correctly, he clearly did that to get far enough away from the catcher so that he couldn't attempt a tag.  Granted, the catcher did not attempt a tag in the second scenario, but that may have been because the runner got far enough into the infield to make the attempt impossible.

 

If the catcher is not making a play or attempt to tag the BR, then the BR cannot be out for the '3ft out of the baseline rule'

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[ricka56]

14 minutes ago, James88 said:

The second play seems a little gray to me.  The OP stated the 2nd play was just like the first with the exception that the catcher did not try to make a play.  As stated in that original post, that means he ran into the grass to avoid the catcher making a play on him.  

If he ran far enough away that the catcher saw there was no point in trying to make a play, why would he still not be out?  If I understand the OP correctly, he clearly did that to get far enough away from the catcher so that he couldn't attempt a tag.  Granted, the catcher did not attempt a tag in the second scenario, but that may have been because the runner got far enough into the infield to make the attempt impossible.

You answered your own question (why is still not out?) in the bold type. A play has to be made on a runner for the 3 foot rule to be applied. "When" a play is being made (tag attempt) is a judgement call. I wouldn't use MLB umpire's criteria (tag attempt) for games below pro level. 

[James88]

I guess I'm envisioning a scenario where the batter sees where the ball has been kicked, makes a path out into the infield thereby making it impossible for the catcher to make an attempt.

He de facto avoided the tag by making the attempt impossible.

 

[indianaumpire15]

Just for reference, a question I've always had is what part of the body has to go 3 feet from the attempted tag to be called out?

[ricka56]

16 minutes ago, indianaumpire15 said:

Just for reference, a question I've always had is what part of the body has to go 3 feet from the attempted tag to be called out?

That would depend on whether you need justification to for an out or that's nothing. I know of no interp that covers this reference. I suggest using the KISS reference.

[noumpere]

37 minutes ago, James88 said:

I guess I'm envisioning a scenario where the batter sees where the ball has been kicked, makes a path out into the infield thereby making it impossible for the catcher to make an attempt.

He de facto avoided the tag by making the attempt impossible.

 

Doesn't matter.  He's allowed to run where he wants until a play is attempted.

26 minutes ago, indianaumpire15 said:

Just for reference, a question I've always had is what part of the body has to go 3 feet from the attempted tag to be called out?

All of it.

[James88]

I'm just struggling with this because in this scenario, if he runs into the infield it seems obvious he is avoiding the catcher, who at the time doesn't have the ball but the BR has anticipated he'll collect the ball and then have a play.  He's not running in a weird direction to avoid a fielder making a play he's just running in a weird direction because he knows if he doesn't there will be a play.

Again, not trying to be smart so please don't take it that way.  

[ALStripes17]

I'm just struggling with this because in this scenario, if he runs into the infield it seems obvious he is avoiding the catcher, who at the time doesn't have the ball but the BR has anticipated he'll collect the ball and then have a play.  He's not running in a weird direction to avoid a fielder making a play he's just running in a weird direction because he knows if he doesn't there will be a play.

Again, not trying to be smart so please don't take it that way.  

We won't be offended.

We can only apply the rule and/or interpretations that exist. Runners are allowed to run nearly anywhere they want to in their attempt to advance or return to a base, sans a play (read:tag attempt) being made on them. Some codes are more strict with this interpretation than others but the BR has not violated a rule simply by running into the grass of the infield.

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[James88]

Thanks AL.  I can reconcile that to avoid a tag attempt, the fielder must have the ball in his/her possession and not just be getting ready to collect the ball to attempt the tag.

 

[noumpere]

43 minutes ago, James88 said:

I'm just struggling with this because in this scenario, if he runs into the infield it seems obvious he is avoiding the catcher, who at the time doesn't have the ball but the BR has anticipated he'll collect the ball and then have a play.  He's not running in a weird direction to avoid a fielder making a play he's just running in a weird direction because he knows if he doesn't there will be a play.

Again, not trying to be smart so please don't take it that way.  

And if he runs "wide" then it takes him longer to get to first, making it easier for the defense to get the out.

[maven]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

And if he runs "wide" then it takes him longer to get to first, making it easier for the defense to get the out.

What if he takes a "Great Circle" route?

[ricka56]

4 hours ago, maven said:

What if he takes a "Great Circle" route?

The OP eliminates the short "great circle" global route (1BL). He didn't take that one.
The long way has him retreating past HP for an out and has him home in time for dinner.