Appeal

[AmackNH]

Runner on 1st less than 2 outs.  Runner steals and batter hits a hard liner to the second baseman.  The second baseman catches the ball for out 1.  R1, knowing he is going to get doubled up, rounds second and heads toward third.  Second baseman then attempts to throw to first to complete the double play and throws the ball into the stands.  Where do you put R1 and can the defense then appeal?

[dookiexman]

R1 is awarded 3rd, but must complete his award of bases properly. If he does not tag up (and run the bases properly to do so), then the defense may appeal a missed base or missed tag up. R1 gets a chance to do so before the defense is granted an appeal.

[noumpere]

A couple of additional points to dookiexman's answer"

 

1) in FED, since R1 is already past 2B when the ball becomes dead, R1 cannot legally return to correct his base running mistake.  Even if the does go through the motions, he's still liable to be called out on appeal.

2) In OBR, the runner can return UNLESS he advances to and touches third AFTER the ball becomes dead.  In that case, he's subject to the same restrictions as above for FED.

3) I *think* that the initial award in OBR is home (since R1 was past second at the time of the throw).  Once he returns to first, change the award to third.  (but I also think that either different "experts" have different opinions on this, or it's gone back and forth over the years).

4) Since the initial appeal (F4's throw to / past first) was during continuous action, this does NOT negate the ability of the defense to make an appeal once the ball again becomes live (despite the offense's likely objection)

[Replacematt]

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

A couple of additional points to dookiexman's answer"

 

1) in FED, since R1 is already past 2B when the ball becomes dead, R1 cannot legally return to correct his base running mistake.  Even if the does go through the motions, he's still liable to be called out on appeal.

2) In OBR, the runner can return UNLESS he advances to and touches third AFTER the ball becomes dead.  In that case, he's subject to the same restrictions as above for FED.

3) I *think* that the initial award in OBR is home (since R1 was past second at the time of the throw).  Once he returns to first, change the award to third.  (but I also think that either different "experts" have different opinions on this, or it's gone back and forth over the years).

4) Since the initial appeal (F4's throw to / past first) was during continuous action, this does NOT negate the ability of the defense to make an appeal once the ball again becomes live (despite the offense's likely objection)

And while it was not the case in the OP, if you judge that the defense intentionally threw the ball out of play to prevent the runner from correcting his mistake as in 1), that restriction on the runner does not apply.

[mrumpiresir]

15 hours ago, noumpere said:

 

3) I *think* that the initial award in OBR is home (since R1 was past second at the time of the throw).  Once he returns to first, change the award to third.  (but I also think that either different "experts" have different opinions on this, or it's gone back and forth over the years).

 

I'm not sure the award would be home on this play.  The OP has a line drive caught for the first out which is not a play for the purpose of this rule. The throw to first is the first play by an infielder so the award is from TOP, which would be third base.

 

 

[basejester]

13 minutes ago, mrumpiresir said:

The throw to first is the first play by an infielder so the award is from TOP, which would be second base.

The award is two bases.  Even using his TOP origin, he would get third base.

 

 

[maven]

22 minutes ago, mrumpiresir said:

I'm not sure the award would be home on this play.  The OP has a line drive caught for the first out which is not a play for the purpose of this rule. The throw to first is the first play by an infielder so the award is from TOP, which would be second base.

Are you sure an appeal counts as a play in the relevant sense? F4 is NOT playing on the BR by throwing to 1B.

[noumpere]

There is this from PBUC (the play being referenced is similar enough to the OP):

b) What if the runner is beyond second base at the time of the throw? Is the award then

home? Ruling: No, the award is still third because the throw was the first play by an

infielder. NOTE: See Section 3.11 for situations when a runner is initially awarded two

bases from his position at the time of the throw, after which he is subsequently awarded

two bases from his original base.

I (obviously) wasn't thinking about the "first play by an infielder" part of the OP.

[urout17]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

And while it was not the case in the OP, if you judge that the defense intentionally threw the ball out of play to prevent the runner from correcting his mistake as in 1), that restriction on the runner does not apply.

If a HS defensive player actually knew what he was doing on this he's a genius, just say'n.

[mrumpiresir]

15 hours ago, basejester said:

The award is two bases.  Even using his TOP origin, he would get third base.

 

 

I should have said third would be the award, not second. Brain fart.  I fixed it.

[mrumpiresir]

15 hours ago, maven said:

Are you sure an appeal counts as a play in the relevant sense? F4 is NOT playing on the BR by throwing to 1B.

I thought so.  Would it not be in this scenario?

[ricka56]

22 hours ago, mrumpiresir said:

The OP has a line drive caught for the first out which is not a play for the purpose of this rule. The throw to first is the first play by an infielder so the award is from TOP, which would be third base.

What constitutes a "play" is the most confusing concept that this rules-geek-wanna-be has. Where is a "play" defined ? Can someone please post the definition. 

[noumpere]

It's been posted several times on various forums.  Here's one cut from some version o fMLBUM:

 

5.1 PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases

(Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has

possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a

runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or

actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the

runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an

attempted play.

EXAMPLES:

A play or attempted play:

(1) Runners on first and second, ground ball to the shortstop, who makes a swipe at the

runner from second but misses and then throws beyond first base into the stands.

Ruling: The swipe by the shortstop is an attempted play; thus the throw to first is not the

first play by an infielder (even though it is the first throw), and the proper award of bases

would be from the time of the throw.

(2) Runner on first and ground ball to second baseman who flips ball to short to get runner

from first but who is safe. Shortstop throws beyond first into the stands.

Ruling: The flip by the second baseman to the shortstop is an attempted play, even

though unsuccessful. The throw to first is not the first play by an infielder and thus runner

should be placed from the time of the throw. Runner who was on first would score and

batter-runner would be placed at second.

Not a play or attempted play:

(1) A fake or a feint to a base but not actually throwing, even though the fielder draws his

arm back to feint a throw.

(2) A pitcher feinting a throw toward a base to hold or check a runner's progress in order to

complete an appeal play at another base.

(3) Runner on first, ground ball to the shortstop, who starts to flip the ball to the second

baseman but does not and throws the ball beyond first and out of play.

Ruling: The feint to the second baseman is not considered a play or attempted play, and

award of bases is from the time of the pitch.

(4) Runners on first and third, runner on first stealing as ground ball is hit to shortstop. The

shortstop feints a throw home but does not throw-instead throws to first and into the

stands; during this time the runner from first has rounded second base.

Ruling: The feint by the shortstop toward home is not considered a play or attempted

play; thus the throw beyond first is the first play by an infielder and awards should be

made from the time of the pitch.

[ricka56]

Is that interp accepted in HS (Fed)
and NCAA ? 

[ALStripes17]

Is that interp accepted in HS (Fed)

and NCAA ? 

FED I believe so.. Will search for case play after my class

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[noumpere]

12 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

Is that interp accepted in HS (Fed)
and NCAA ? 

Yes in NCAA.