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Appeal Play


yawetag
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Taken from Referee's Umpire Quiz 2011. Use Fed rules:

With the bases loaded and one out, B5 hits a ground ball that takes F4 deep into the hole in shallow right field. F4's only play is at first base, where B5 is retired. On the play, both R2 and R3 score. The defense then successfully appeals that R2 missed third base. Does R3's run score?

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I'll take a stab at it and say yes.

Since the throw was to 1B for the 2nd out, the force was removed from all the runners at the instance the 2nd out was made. Therefore, no force for the 3rd out, score the run.

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Not positive because I can't find a casebook play on this situation... but just working it out in my head (lots of empty room in there)...

I believe that in this situation R3's run does not score because R2 was a force out for out # 2 ( on appeal ), and B5's out at at 1B would be out #3. No runs can score when the 3rd out is made by the B/R before reaching 1st base.

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The appeal out is the third out - it happens at the time of the appeal, not the infraction.

I'm not sure for FED but in OBR if it was a force at the time of the infraction it is treated as a force at the time of the appeal and no run would score.

Rich,

Same in FED. They don't screw up EVERYTHING!

JM

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I have no runs.

Michael,

Are you sure?

Because, while I suspect you are likely correct as I envision the play in my mind, I can't say for sure.

And I don't think anyone else can either, because there is one essential piece of information missing from the question that would be required to answer the question with certainty.300.gif

JM

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The appeal out is the third out - it happens at the time of the appeal, not the infraction.

I'm not sure for FED but in OBR if it was a force at the time of the infraction it is treated as a force at the time of the appeal and no run would score.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean..........

Are you saying that if the B/R was put out before R2 passed 3B that the force would have been removed and then it would be a time play, so the run (R3's) would score?....... And that if R2 had passed 3B before the B/R had been put out that then the force would have still been in effect so R3's run would not score in this case?

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Are you saying that if the B/R was put out before R2 passed 3B that the force would have been removed and then it would be a time play, so the run (R3's) would score?

When I took the test, I missed it. I would have sworn the play was a force. However, after thinking it through, BR being retired removes the force, so the miss was not on a forced runner. Run scores.

I'd have to say that before I read this play, I would have ruled it no run every time.

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yawetag,

From the question, how could you possibly know whether or not the BR was retired prior to the R2 passing 3B without touching it?

As written, the question is impossible to answer - unless you're clairvoyant and can read the question writer's mind.

JM

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yawetag,

From the question, how could you possibly know whether or not the BR was retired prior to the R2 passing 3B without touching it?

As written, the question is impossible to answer - unless you're clairvoyant and can read the question writer's mind.

JM

It doesn't matter. Once the BR is retired, the force is removed at all bases. Therefore, his miss of 3B wasn't a force, whether he passed it or not.

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yawetag,

I don't believe that's correct.

If the runner is "forced" at the time he misses the base, a subsequent proper appeal of his miss is treated as a force out.

If the force has been removed at the time of his miss, a subsequent proper appeal of his miss is not treated as a force out.

If the runner is forced at the time he misses the base, and the force is subsequently removed, an appeal of his miss is still treated as a force out.

JM

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Taken from Referee's Umpire Quiz 2011. Use Fed rules:

With the bases loaded and one out, B5 hits a ground ball that takes F4 deep into the hole in shallow right field. F4's only play is at first base, where B5 is retired. On the play, both R2 and R3 score. The defense then successfully appeals that R2 missed third base. Does R3's run score?

yawetag,

I don't believe that's correct.

If the runner is "forced" at the time he misses the base, a subsequent proper appeal of his miss is treated as a force out.

If the force has been removed at the time of his miss, a subsequent proper appeal of his miss is not treated as a force out.

If the runner is forced at the time he misses the base, and the force is subsequently removed, an appeal of his miss is still treated as a force out.

JM

A couple questions I am unclear on.

#1. JM's assertions in bold sound correct and familiar. However, I cannot seem to find a citation for this.

#2 In the OP, this is a FED sitch. So, R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and R3 on 1B, correct? Wait, that can't be correct, because if R1 were on 3B, then he would have scored. But we are still referring to B5. So I guess R3 is on 3B? Stupid FED language

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I believe there is precedence for Rich and JM's answer. Think of this. Forget about BR being put out at 1B. Let's say he wasn't.

R2 and R3 score. R1 goes to 3B and BR goes to 2B and is put out. At the time of the appeal of R2 missing 3B, there is no force at this time. All runners advanced beyond their "forced" base. Correct? Then, upon proper appeal of R2 missing 3B, would the run score then? No. B/c, at the time he missed the base, he was forced to it. Therefore, R3's run would not score. Are we in agreement to that?

If so, the OP depends on when BR is put out. It is a "time" play but in a different sense. 7.12 (I know it is FED but the ruling is the same even if the language and numbers are not) says no run if the appeal is a force play. So, the status of it being a force play or not at the time of the miss is very important. It all depends on the timing of the events. So, the question definitely depends on if it was a force play or not and that is determined of when BR is put out for the OP.

If before the miss, it is a "time" appeal and R3 scores. If after the miss, it is a "force" play and R3 does not score. BR's status at the time of the miss determines everything.

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I agree that if the force was removed before the runner passed third then that is a horse of a different color. However, the question would qualify that if that was what they were looking for. Being they didn't qualify it then the force is there and no runs. JMHO

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Michael,

While that is certainly one way of looking at it, it is no more valid than suggesting that "If the runner were still forced at the time he missed the base, the question would have said that. It didn't say that, so the runner was not forced and that's not what they were looking for."

Basically, as written, it's a "crappy question". Which is pretty unremarkable, considering the source. JMHO. To be fair, I do believe some of the stuff they publish is quite good.

A friend and neighbor of mine is Referee Magazine's IP lawyer (primarily copyright/trademark issues). I like to tease him mercilessly about some of the "crap" they publish and question his "ethics" because he is clearly just "stealing money" from them when he takes his fees. After all, no one in their right mind would "plagiarize" some of this crap and try to pass it off as their own, and it's equally clear that it's "their own work" and they're not "stealing it" from any other credible/reputable source.

As you might suspect, he finds it hilarious when I tease him in this manner. rolleyes.gif

JM

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I was looking at as a Fed question and there they usually add a caveat if they trying to make a destinction. When Andrew asked if I was sure, I was by my reading of it but I forgot the source. It is a shame that they screw up as many rulings as they do because I think they are a good source for officiating as a whole.

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yawetag,

I don't believe that's correct.

If the runner is "forced" at the time he misses the base, a subsequent proper appeal of his miss is treated as a force out.

If the force has been removed at the time of his miss, a subsequent proper appeal of his miss is not treated as a force out.

If the runner is forced at the time he misses the base, and the force is subsequently removed, an appeal of his miss is still treated as a force out.

JM

I don't know that this is true in HS ball, and it isnt always true in NCAA ball (and, I think OBR).

In HS, theres a statement to the effect that " no runner may be forced if a runner behind him is first put out." (somewhere in rule 8.4.2) Theres no exception listed for "if he was forced at the time he missed the base the force remains." And case 9-1-1 Situation K is a play similar to the one that started this thread, and has the runner not being forced out (but it does not make clear the timing or if the timing matters).

Take this play -- Bases Loaded, One Out. Triple. R1 misses second, Batter misses first. Defense appeals Batter, then Runner. In NCAA (and I think OBR) the out on R1 is not a force out, and two runs score. If the defense had appealed R1 first, then Batter, no runs would score because the third out was on the Batter missing first.

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noumpere,

1. I'm not sure what you're saying with your first sentence, particularly the "isn't always true in NCAA" part? 300.gif Do you have a cite or reference? (Not being a smarta$$, the "always" kinda' "threw me".)

2. There is a statement in all three codes to the effect that "...a force is removed if a following runner is first put out...", but the "first" is important.

3. At the risk of opening the whole "order of appeals" can of worms, the BRD DOES, in fact, suggest that

  • IF there are multiple missed bases on a play by different runners,
  • AND the runners were both/all forced to the base they missed at the time they missed them,
  • AND the defense properly appeals more than one of those misses
  • AND the defense appeals a following runner's miss BEFORE appealing a preceding runner's miss,

THEN, the appeal of the preceding runner's miss is NOT treated as a "force out".

Now, there is no support for this "order of appeals" principle in ANY other official/authoritative source that I can find, but maybe I'm just not finding it.

JM

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yawetag,

I don't believe that's correct.

If the runner is "forced" at the time he misses the base, a subsequent proper appeal of his miss is treated as a force out.

If the force has been removed at the time of his miss, a subsequent proper appeal of his miss is not treated as a force out.

If the runner is forced at the time he misses the base, and the force is subsequently removed, an appeal of his miss is still treated as a force out.

JM

I don't know that this is true in HS ball, and it isnt always true in NCAA ball (and, I think OBR).

In HS, theres a statement to the effect that " no runner may be forced if a runner behind him is first put out." (somewhere in rule 8.4.2) Theres no exception listed for "if he was forced at the time he missed the base the force remains." And case 9-1-1 Situation K is a play similar to the one that started this thread, and has the runner not being forced out (but it does not make clear the timing or if the timing matters).

Take this play -- Bases Loaded, One Out. Triple. R1 misses second, Batter misses first. Defense appeals Batter, then Runner. In NCAA (and I think OBR) the out on R1 is not a force out, and two runs score. If the defense had appealed R1 first, then Batter, no runs would score because the third out was on the Batter missing first.

The point of your last play is b/c the defense has time to think about what it is doing. By appealing the BR first, the defense was allowed and took the time to think of what they were doing and therefore, it has consequences for not doing things in order.

During a live play, the defense cannot afford to attempt to do things in order. If they do, they will lose the opportunity to get an out on a play like the OP where the BR would not be called out if the ball is thrown to 1B after an appeal of 3B is made. Again, the defense does not have the luxury of thinking through their options and making a conscious decision. In your example, they do and chose the wrong one.

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The NCAA just released an interp that states once a following runner has been called out on appeal, the force is removed on any preceding runner and it now becomes a time play.

What if a following runner was simply forced out? Is the force removed for appeal purposes?

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