Time Play

[nicshow]

This is a question on my Fed test:

R1 on third R2 on 1st with 1 out. As the pitch is released R2 attempts to steal. B3 hits a fly ball that is caught by F9. R1 tags up and attempts to score. F9 throws the ball to F3 who touches 1st before R2 returns to the base. R1 touches home plate prior to F3 touching 1st.

A. When F3 touches first base it is a force out for the third out of the inning. R1's run does not count.
*  B. When F3 touches first base it is a force out for the third out of the inning.
*  C. This is considered a time play. R1's run does not count.
*  D. This is considered a time play. Count the run by R1.

A & B are eliminated because this is not a force play.

I THINK the correct answer is D?

 

Nic

[calablue]

D

[noumpere]

33 minutes ago, nicshow said:

A & B are eliminated because this is not a force play.

I THINK the correct answer is D?

 

Nic

If you know it's not a force play, then it's a time play.  On a time play, the run scores if the runner passed the plate before the out is made.  That's what happened.  Score the run.  Answer D.

[VolUmp]

Nic,

This is a very, very common test question in any brand of baseball.  Why?  Because it is one of the least understood rules of the game.  I hear coaches, even at the high school level, often use the incorrect term of "force" in any situation where a runner is being doubled off.  It's obvious that the confusion comes from the fact that we are taught that we just need to step on the base (while controlling the ball) ahead of a FORCED runner to obtain an out, so the same must be true when stepping on the base (while controlling the ball) "behind" a runner who is FORCED to return after a caught fly ball and tag up ... right?  Well ... no  ... that's just an example of misusing the term FORCE and not understanding the definition of FORCE or FORCE PLAY in baseball terms.  I suppose I'd say the runner is REQUIRED to return and tag up.

And don't think this situation will probably never happen to you ... I can think of at least five times I've had this situation almost precisely as described.  Four of the five times, I had a great partner who knew the rule.  Once, I had a partner who was so misinformed, that after the run was put on the scoreboard, he yelled up to the scorer to take the run off the board.  I intervened and quietly explained why it counted and he re-motioned to put the run back up.  Well, this created a SH-- Storm because it was his call, but I was evidently overruling him, and neither HS coach understood the rule.  (The irony of it ... the scoreboard operator did know the rule.)

I try to teach this to fellow umpires and teachable coaches (did I just say ... never  mind ... ) by pointing out that to force out a player, you always have the option of stepping on the bag IN FRONT of him, and there's no such thing as a backwards force play.  There's also no such thing as a force play following a caught fly ball.  (A force play can only be created by a batted ground ball.  A dropped fly ball is a batted ground ball for the purpose of this rule/discussion).

So, if tagging up is not a force play, it must be an appeal play ... and in this case, also a TIME play.

This can get hairy, though, because the word APPEAL gets misused as well. 

-- If a player fails to tag up after a caught fly ball, the defense may appeal him out.  Either in real time, or after the fact.

-- If a player misses a base, the defense may appeal him out.  Either in real time, or after the fact.

-- If a player half-swings at a pitch and a ball is called, the catcher may appeal the call to the HP Ump to defer to the Base Ump.

-- If a 1B coach thinks the 1st baseman pulls his foot, he may not actually appeal the play ... he may ask if the umpire would consider seeking help.

-- If a 3B coach thinks the 3rd baseman dropped the ball, he may not actually appeal the play ... he may ask if the umpire would consider seeking help.

Final comment since I'm already off track:

There can be a play that is both an APPEAL PLAY and a FORCE PLAY at the same time.  Most common example is with R1 on 3B and R2 on 1B with two outs.  Batter hits the pitch to the outfield, stops at 1B for a single, R1 apparently scores easily, R2 rounds 2B and slides in safely at 3B, but misses 2B along the way.  If the defense properly APPEALS the missed base, and R1 is called out on appeal, he is also considered to be FORCED OUT at 2B, and by rule, that takes away the run ... no different than if the ball was thrown to 2nd base before he arrived there on an infield grounder.

 

[FleasOf1000Camels]

I'm AMAZED at the number of otherwise well-informed folks (players, coaches, fans and even umpires that miss this call. 

The obvious correct answer is D.

The reason so many people mess this up is that they fail to understand the difference between a FORCE play and an APPEAL play.

[stkjock]

On February 21, 2016 at 1:41 AM, WildFlyer said:

 

Final comment since I'm already off track:

There can be a play that is both an APPEAL PLAY and a FORCE PLAY at the same time.  Most common example is with R1 on 3B and R2 on 1B with two outs.  Batter hits the pitch to the outfield, stops at 1B for a single, R1 apparently scores easily, R2 rounds 2B and slides in safely at 3B, but misses 2B along the way.  If the defense properly APPEALS the missed base, and R1 is called out on appeal, he is also considered to be FORCED OUT at 2B, and by rule, that takes away the run ... no different than if the ball was thrown to 2nd base before he arrived there on an infield grounder.

 

You mean R2 don't you? As R1 scored 

 

great  write up.  Thanks. 

[ALStripes17]

You mean R2 don't you? As R1 scored 

 

great  write up.  Thanks. 

That's what happens when FED uses its own notation...

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[VolUmp]

On 3/8/2016 at 4:49 PM, stkjock said:

You mean R2 don't you? As R1 scored 

great  write up.  Thanks. 

Yes Sir ... I meant R2. 

And actually, yes, as ALStripes17 mentioned, we wouldn't make these base runner designation errors if FED would get with the program and use standard designations!!!!

So I'd rather have said, R3 apparently scored, and R1 was called out on appeal (for missing the base) and also forced out.  R3's run, therefore, comes off the board.

[BCBrad]

I like the definition of a force as a runner having to advance to the subsequent base due to the batter becoming a runner. If the BR is put out before reaching first, then the force is removed. 

A force is not always on a batted ball. For example, bases loaded; 2 out; 2-strikes on batter. Dropped third strike. The catcher just has to touch home plate to force R3.

 

[VolUmp]

The problem I have with this definition ... is it was never expanded to mention that the Batter/Runner is considered to be "forced" to 1B on a batted ground ball ... (or a D3K) ... so now we have to put up with Smart a$$es who tell us, "The Batter/Runner is actually never 'forced out' at 1B ... but the rules are all the same."

OK ... got it ... so why not pick up the clean end of the stick and broaden the definition to include the B/R as a forced runner rather than create another academic test question that has no bearing on one's ability to manage a game?

Because THAT, my friend, would make common sense ...

[ALStripes17]

The problem I have with this definition ... is it was never expanded to mention that the Batter/Runner is considered to be "forced" to 1B on a batted ground ball ... (or a D3K) ... so now we have to put up with Smart a$$es who tell us, "The Batter/Runner is actually never 'forced out' at 1B ... but the rules are all the same."

OK ... got it ... so why not pick up the clean end of the stick and broaden the definition to include the B/R as a forced runner rather than create another academic test question that has no bearing on one's ability to manage a game?

Because THAT, my friend, would make common sense ...

Because that's not the definition of a forced runner per Rule 2

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[noumpere]

6 hours ago, WildFlyer said:

The problem I have with this definition ... is it was never expanded to mention that the Batter/Runner is considered to be "forced" to 1B on a batted ground ball ... (or a D3K) ... so now we have to put up with Smart a$$es who tell us, "The Batter/Runner is actually never 'forced out' at 1B ... but the rules are all the same."

OK ... got it ... so why not pick up the clean end of the stick and broaden the definition to include the B/R as a forced runner rather than create another academic test question that has no bearing on one's ability to manage a game?

Because THAT, my friend, would make common sense ...

Because the (OBR) rules are written specifically for MLB.  No one there has a problem with this rule, and to change it requires the approval of many different entities many of whom would want something in exchange for agreeing to the change.

[ALStripes17]

Because the (OBR) rules are written specifically for MLB.  No one there has a problem with this rule, and to change it requires the approval of many different entities many of whom would want something in exchange for agreeing to the change.

I also lean to the idea that this sort of critical reading/thinking helps separate those who have a better understanding of how to interpret rules

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[ElkOil]

@maven and I had an off-line exchange about this, and since he offered, I'll include his response as a learning tool for anyone else who was confused like I was.  @WildFlyer posted an excellent response earlier in this thread that included an explanation for a play being both and appeal and a force. Here's Maven's response to my question about the force being in effect during an appeal, even after the runner passed the base:

Passing a base does remove the force. Consider: 2 outs, R1, R3. Batted ball to the outfield, R3 scores, R1passes 2B without touching it, and the defense plays on him at 3B. At 3B, he will have to be tagged there, as the force was removed when he acquired 2B.

But, safe or out at 3B, the defense may still appeal the missed base at 2B. If they do, then the out at 2B will count as a force out, because R1 was forced to advance to and touch 2B. Because he never touched 2B, his out there counts as a force out: the force was removed when he passed 2B, but only pending proper appeal. If R3 was put out at 3B, the successful appeal at 2B will be an advantageous 4th out situation, as it will remove R3's run from the board. The 4th out will supersede R1's out at 3B.

Feel free to include this response if you decide to post your question in the forum. I can fairly guarantee you're not the only one wondering about this. People get confused about whether appeals are force outs: some think a retouch appeal, for instance, is a force play because only the base, not the runner, needs to be tagged. In this way, it is more like a force play than a tag play, but of course the resemblance is superficial: you can appeal by tagging the runner, too, even if he's standing on base!