Jose Bautista hits a double on John Danks' no-stop balk

[MikeSafari]

http://m.bluejays.mlb.com/tor/video/v132292583

Not something you see too often at the MLB level. However, it looks to me that Jerry Meals actually called time at about the 5" mark of the video.

[scrounge]

ok....so, in my caffeine-deprived state, I'm having trouble seeing this balk. Danks is just standing there, motionless. Where's the no-stop?

[MikeSafari]

ok....so, in my caffeine-deprived state, I'm having trouble seeing this balk. Danks is just standing there, motionless. Where's the no-stop?

​I also had trouble seeing it but apparently that delivery was completely different to what he'd been using the whole game. I dunno.

Makes me wish we could get official explanations of calls like this after the fact from MLB.

[BillKen]

http://m.bluejays.mlb.com/tor/video/v132964683/cwstor-bautista-hits-three-doubles-knocks-in-five

Look at the umpire and the 3B coach at 0:55 in this video...Fletcher just moves him out of the way!

[maven]

ok....so, in my caffeine-deprived state, I'm having trouble seeing this balk. Danks is just standing there, motionless. Where's the no-stop?

​So, first off: ignore everything you read and hear. No stop? Quick pitch? Not the same motion? No, no, and no.

Notice that F1 addressed the batter with his feet in the set position and with his HANDS TOGETHER. That's a violation of the rules for the set position, OBR 5.07(a)(2)/8.01(b).

If he disengages from this position, it's nothing. But once he commits to pitch, it's an illegal pitch. With runners on, it's a balk.

Very unusual. If the commentators got anything right, I'd guess Danks was pitching from the windup with bases loaded, and for some reason switched to the set, but forgot to keep his hands apart.

[scrounge]

​So, first off: ignore everything you read and hear.

Bases loaded, and F1 addressed the batter with his HANDS TOGETHER. That's a violation of the rules for the set position, OBR 5.07(a)(2)/8.01(b).

If he disengages from this position, it's nothing. But once he commits to pitch, it's an illegal pitch. With runners on, it's a balk.

Very unusual. If the commentators got anything right, I'd guess Danks was pitching from the windup with bases loaded, and for some reason switched to the set, but forgot to keep his hands apart.

​Ah, those sound plausible. The video starts with him standing there, I just assumed he came set normally but who knows.

Crap-a$$ game all around, but I digress.

[Cav]

I now predict that it will take a month or more of Calvinball (our local version of summer ball) to flush out the difference between OBR and NFHS regarding the status of the ball following a balk.  

[Jimurray]

​So, first off: ignore everything you read and hear. No stop? Quick pitch? Not the same motion? No, no, and no.

Notice that F1 addressed the batter with his feet in the set position and with his HANDS TOGETHER. That's a violation of the rules for the set position, OBR 5.07(a)(2)/8.01(b).

If he disengages from this position, it's nothing. But once he commits to pitch, it's an illegal pitch. With runners on, it's a balk.

Very unusual. If the commentators got anything right, I'd guess Danks was pitching from the windup with bases loaded, and for some reason switched to the set, but forgot to keep his hands apart.

​That's his normal wind up foot position and is legal in OBR. But it looks like he tried to quick pitch without the normal windup he does a la Stroh and others. NCAA just came out against allowing such and maybe MLB is telling the umps the same. 

[ricka56]

​That's his normal wind up foot position and is legal in OBR. But it looks like he tried to quick pitch without the normal windup he does a la Stroh and others. NCAA just came out against allowing such and maybe MLB is telling the umps the same. 

I'm not familiar with this F1's habits. ​How is this a legal wind-up position ? Does he contact the rubber with his hands together ? Because if he initiates rubber contact with his hands separated and then brings them together, he's in the set/stop position. F1 can rocker step from the set (looks like a wind-up motion)...maybe...there is a runner on 3B. I still don't know what was illegal.

 

[basejester]

Rule 8 makes me want to kick puppies.  How would that be a wind up position?

(a) The Windup Position.  The pitcher shall stand facing the batter . . .

 

He's set when the video starts.

 

[Jimurray]

Rule 8 makes me want to kick puppies.  How would that be a wind up position?

(a) The Windup Position.  The pitcher shall stand facing the batter . . .

 

He's set when the video starts.

 

​The set also requires facing the batter so using that as a criteria for the windup is not valid. The free foot in the windup can be anywhere a la Cliff Lee and others. The potential for misuse by quick pitching also exists and maybe MLB has changed allowing this. NCAA changed the windup foot rule and as a result also does not want that type of pitcher to change his delivery to QP:

"5.07(a)(2) The Set Position
Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands
facing the batter"

Taking the rubber with hands coming together is something a normal windup pitcher might do and that is probably how Danks got into his windup foot position.

[basejester]

​The set also requires facing the batter so using that as a criteria for the windup is not valid.

​So it is.  Point taken.

 

[basejester]

I'm not familiar with this F1's habits. ​How is this a legal wind-up position ? Does he contact the rubber with his hands together ? Because if he initiates rubber contact with his hands separated and then brings them together, he's in the set/stop position. F1 can rocker step from the set (looks like a wind-up motion)...maybe...there is a runner on 3B. I still don't know what was illegal.

 

​If he comes set, rocker steps, and throws home; I'd have an illegal feint (stepped toward first or third while engaged) and a balk. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by basejester
Forgot the word "He"

[ricka56]

​If comes set, rocker steps, and throws home; I'd have an illegal feint (stepped toward first or third while engaged) and a balk. 

​Its a balk if he rocker steps (feint to 3B) before delivering a pitch and its a balk if he steps directly to HP (quick pitch)...awesome. So his only legal option is to step off (as maven stated).

This confusing conundrum makes Fed pitching rules look sensible.

[basejester]

Notice that F1 addressed the batter with his feet in the set position and with his HANDS TOGETHER.

​I don't notice that from the video.  Do you have another source?

 

[Jimurray]

​If comes set, rocker steps, and throws home; I'd have an illegal feint (stepped toward first or third while engaged) and a balk. 

​You're gonna balk a few MLB pitchers.

[basejester]

​You're gonna balk a few MLB pitchers.

​I can live with that.  :-)

Can you make a rules argument for why it isn't a balk?  Or are we just working off what we see called?

 

[Jimurray]

​I can live with that.  :-)

Can you make a rules argument for why it isn't a balk?  Or are we just working off what we see called?

 

​I don't think a backwards rocker step is a feint. Bases loaded, conventional wind up pitcher takes his backwards windup rocker step toward 2B, you gonna balk that?

[Jimurray]

​So, first off: ignore everything you read and hear. No stop? Quick pitch? Not the same motion? No, no, and no.

Notice that F1 addressed the batter with his feet in the set position and with his HANDS TOGETHER. That's a violation of the rules for the set position, OBR 5.07(a)(2)/8.01(b).

If he disengages from this position, it's nothing. But once he commits to pitch, it's an illegal pitch. With runners on, it's a balk.

Very unusual. If the commentators got anything right, I'd guess Danks was pitching from the windup with bases loaded, and for some reason switched to the set, but forgot to keep his hands apart.

​I don't agree with your anaysis of what he did wrong but taking the rubber with hands together is a "do not do that" in OBR so the umps would have called time.

[basejester]

​I don't think a backwards rocker step is a feint.

I don't either.  If he comes set first, it's pretty hard to take a rocker step backwards.  The motion I was imaging was a step toward first base for a right-handed pitcher.

Bases loaded, conventional wind up pitcher takes his backwards windup rocker step toward 2B, you gonna balk that?

​No.  Because the rules explicitly say he can take a step backward as part of his motion home.

[Jimurray]

I don't either.  If he comes set first, it's pretty hard to take a rocker step backwards.  The motion I was imaging was a step toward first base for a right-handed pitcher.

​No.  Because the rules explicitly say he can take a step backward as part of his motion home.

​And if he is a 3B or 1B facing pitcher who can legally have his feet positioned that way he can also take a backwards step.

[ricka56]

​I don't think a backwards rocker step is a feint. Bases loaded, conventional wind up pitcher takes his backwards windup rocker step toward 2B, you gonna balk that?

​That's what's so confusing. I wouldn't balk the rocker step form the conventional wind-up (RHP/LHP). But from the conventional set position (LHP), I would probably balk a rocker step towards 3B (with R3). I don't know why I wouldn't balk him from this LHP's "made to look like a set" wind-up position.

[basejester]

​And if he is a 3B or 1B facing pitcher who can legally have his feet positioned that way he can also take a backwards step.

​I see the communication problem.  When I read this rule, forward and backward are relative to home plate (not to the pitcher's orientation).

 He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

The pitcher steps backward toward second base and then forward toward home.  If he rocker steps toward first base, this is sideways relative to home.  I think we have to read it this way, or else the wind-up position would prohibit the "sideways" (relative to the body) step toward home.  It's just that modern baseball gives a ton of leeway on "backward" in the windup.

[JHSump]

Are there any other videos of this F1's "windup position and pitch." It might be interesting to compare what he did in the current video with what some of you are referring to as his "normal windup position/pitch."

[maven]

Are there any other videos of this F1's "windup position and pitch." It might be interesting to compare what he did in the current video with what some of you are referring to as his "normal windup position/pitch."